Don't want to bring it up again

For stuff that can only sensibly reside here. You have been warned. HERE LIVETH TROLLS!

Moderators: nige101uk, willesdenr, qprdotorgadmin, ZENITH R, Virginia_R

User avatar
Stan
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 4685
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: N3

Post by Stan » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:26 am

The death count is such a "talking point" Red Herring. Its like saying "twice as many Germans died in WW2 than Americans & British deaths combined (which they did) therefore the Germans were the good guys".

Who do you think your fooling Bobby? It means nothing except that Israel provides air raid shelters for her citizens.
next year, we'll be champions..

User avatar
Don
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 14974
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Devizes

Post by Don » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:14 am

Gentlemen, might I make so bold as to suggest to some of you that children are not just numbers. A 'score' of one all would be a cause for sadness.
I'm Ray Gardner. I drink Blackcurrant Tango. Come and get me!

User avatar
BiscuitRanger
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5201
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:19 am
Location: Johannesburg

Post by BiscuitRanger » Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:33 am

Don wrote:Gentlemen, might I make so bold as to suggest to some of you that children are not just numbers. A 'score' of one all would be a cause for sadness.
I don't feel it is necessary to differentiate between children and adults in this type of situation. People on both sides are as helpless as one another. A loss of any innocent human life is always sad and too often seems inevitable when fundamentalism of any flavour rears its ugly head.
Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

User avatar
Dunc
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:06 pm
Contact:

Post by Dunc » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:13 am

1 Bobby Hazell wrote: Well, thank you for proving my points by your response. Quoting numbers of deaths just expands my point further to a larger sample size. In the time you quote from 2000 to know 6,638 Palestinians have been killed, 1,516 of them children. In that time 129 Israeli children have been killed. So your attempt to justify your stance through bringing up figures just goes to further prove mine. I appreciate even though the figures are right in front of you, you still won't be able to see any of this. Fear, hatred and programming runs deep.

And you accuse me of looking at the smaller picture, hilarious. The 169 to 6 was symbolic of the whole conflict.

And these figures don't take into account the daily suffering visited on Palestinians by occupation, roadblocks, restricted movement etc etc etc.

Your quote about the IDF at the end is naive to the point of childish. See my earlier post on swallowing what your leaders tell you when committing genocide, it's not very intelligent and it keeps us, as a planet, in the poor condition we are currently in, in so many ways.

Your inability to address anything else in my post just goes to prove what a narrow view you have to take to maintain your unreasonable position. However I cannot blame you for ignoring it all as to genuinely address it would require a life changing shift of your consciousness.
This is a very salient point.
'Live every week like it is shark week'

User avatar
rblockells
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 13296
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:33 pm
Location: london

Post by rblockells » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:32 am

1BobbyHazell made the point about a required "shift in consciousness" .

I am in total agreement.

This particular human tragedy is another example of the old paradigm of duality keeping humanity back from it's /our true potential.

As long we hark-back and look for blame,they did this to us,so we will do this to them,then we will never move-on.

The old duality of right/wrong,good/bad,light/dark,will continue to hold sway,unless we decide to change the way we think.

When we realise that we are all one,killing another human being would become impossible as it would be insane.(which it is,actually).
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not.Both ideas are overwhelming.

User avatar
Don
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 14974
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Devizes

Post by Don » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:34 am

rblockells wrote:This particular human tragedy is another example of the old paradigm of duality keeping humanity back from it's /our true potential.

As long we hark-back and look for blame,they did this to us,so we will do this to them,then we will never move-on.

The old duality of right/wrong,good/bad,light/dark,will continue to hold sway,unless we decide to change the way we think.

When we realise that we are all one,killing another human being would become impossible as it would be insane.(which it is,actually).
I'd like to see the New Seekers singing those lyrics.
I'm Ray Gardner. I drink Blackcurrant Tango. Come and get me!

User avatar
rblockells
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 13296
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:33 pm
Location: london

Post by rblockells » Fri Mar 15, 2013 11:50 am

Don wrote:
rblockells wrote:This particular human tragedy is another example of the old paradigm of duality keeping humanity back from it's /our true potential.

As long we hark-back and look for blame,they did this to us,so we will do this to them,then we will never move-on.

The old duality of right/wrong,good/bad,light/dark,will continue to hold sway,unless we decide to change the way we think.

When we realise that we are all one,killing another human being would become impossible as it would be insane.(which it is,actually).
I'd like to see the New Seekers singing those lyrics.
:lol: :lol:

"I'd like to teach to world to sing"
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not.Both ideas are overwhelming.

User avatar
1 Bobby Hazell
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 2947
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:05 pm

Post by 1 Bobby Hazell » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:00 pm

Stan wrote:The death count is such a "talking point" Red Herring. Its like saying "twice as many Germans died in WW2 than Americans & British deaths combined (which they did) therefore the Germans were the good guys".

Who do you think your fooling Bobby? It means nothing except that Israel provides air raid shelters for her citizens.
'Death count ... red Herring.' The casual use of such a phrase only serves to back up my points.

I'm not attempting to fool anyone Stan, if you believe that the extra Palestinian deaths are down to use of Air Raid Shelters and nothing to do with Israel's murderous foreign policy then so be it, your mind set is well entenched and sadly seems beyond change.

I agree with Don and Biscuit re 1 death is enough, my use of figures is an attempt to get you to look at your own anger (leading to genocide justification) due to the Israeli deaths and then put yourself in Palestinian shoes with their number of deaths to deal with and see how their militant thinkers are of the same mindset as you. If you were a Palestinian you would be equally, if not more, in the consciousness of 'destroy my enemy before he destroys me'. It is this consciousness, on both sides of any conflict, which keeps war and destruction alive in all mass violence on this planet. I believe this is what Rblock is also saying.

If it were the Palestinians receiving billions of dollars from the US and occupying Israel, rest assured I would see them the same way. Just as I condemn my own government for its murderous intentions and actions, so poorly disguised as neccesary or 'good' by PR for the simple of thought.

Personally I feel for the people of Israel, I am sure they are being used by the US for their own Middle East Unsettlement requirements and when the 'game' reaches a new stage they will be abandoned. Never forget that the system that so handsomely funds Israel now is the same one that funded the Nazi's. They will use any 'cause' or 'people' who serve them at a particular time but will dump them at the drop of hat when it suits.

Love is the key and the ONLY way.

And Don, New Seekers :lol:
"I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality" - Martin Luther King, Jr.

User avatar
rblockells
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 13296
Joined: Tue May 15, 2007 1:33 pm
Location: london

Post by rblockells » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:19 pm

Excellent post there from 1BH.

And yes,you were SPOT ON in your assessment of what I was saying(or attempting to say).

The Palestinians and Israelis are all human beings,all share the same nitrogen in their DNA,calcium in their teeth,and iron in their blood.

We are all individual parts of the same whole,and made from the same stuff,the interiors of collapsing stars...but that's another story... :wink:
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not.Both ideas are overwhelming.

User avatar
avigar
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 883
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:08 pm
Location: Gibraltar

Post by avigar » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:27 pm

Well, thank you for proving my points by your response. Quoting numbers of deaths just expands my point further to a larger sample size. In the time you quote from 2000 to know 6,638 Palestinians have been killed, 1,516 of them children. In that time 129 Israeli children have been killed. So your attempt to justify your stance through bringing up figures just goes to further prove mine. I appreciate even though the figures are right in front of you, you still won't be able to see any of this. Fear, hatred and programming runs deep.

And you accuse me of looking at the smaller picture, hilarious. The 169 to 6 was symbolic of the whole conflict.

And these figures don't take into account the daily suffering visited on Palestinians by occupation, roadblocks, restricted movement etc etc etc.

Your quote about the IDF at the end is naive to the point of childish. See my earlier post on swallowing what your leaders tell you when committing genocide, it's not very intelligent and it keeps us, as a planet, in the poor condition we are currently in, in so many ways.

Your inability to address anything else in my post just goes to prove what a narrow view you have to take to maintain your unreasonable position. However I cannot blame you for ignoring it all as to genuinely address it would require a life changing shift of your consciousness.[/quote]


I suggest you visit "Palestine" and see it for yourself. You obviously haven't as you have quite the wrong impression of it. I'll advise you to pay it a visit and you'll see it all from a different perspective. "Daily suffering"? You really do take everything the media feeds you seriously.

Actually, what I said about the IDF at the end, I know is true. I personally have friends who were in the forces and they have told me what exactly happens there. Have a look and witness it 1st hand. Not all soldiers are saints (as in all countries), agreed, but the army's ethos is to minimise civilian damage. All you have to do is go to Israel and see how the majority of Palestinians are treated by the armed forces and Israelis. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It isn't just bloodshed, conflict and suffering like you think.

Peace will never be a reality if they continue to elect terrorist parties into their Government. Every time Israel has given them land, they destroyed and burnt down all the buildings and establishments rather than benfit from them instead they used it to send rockets into Israel mainland...
If Chelsea were playing in my garden, I would close the curtains!

QPR FOREVER!!!

User avatar
1 Bobby Hazell
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 2947
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:05 pm

Post by 1 Bobby Hazell » Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:58 pm

avigar wrote:Well, thank you for proving my points by your response. Quoting numbers of deaths just expands my point further to a larger sample size. In the time you quote from 2000 to know 6,638 Palestinians have been killed, 1,516 of them children. In that time 129 Israeli children have been killed. So your attempt to justify your stance through bringing up figures just goes to further prove mine. I appreciate even though the figures are right in front of you, you still won't be able to see any of this. Fear, hatred and programming runs deep.

And you accuse me of looking at the smaller picture, hilarious. The 169 to 6 was symbolic of the whole conflict.

And these figures don't take into account the daily suffering visited on Palestinians by occupation, roadblocks, restricted movement etc etc etc.

Your quote about the IDF at the end is naive to the point of childish. See my earlier post on swallowing what your leaders tell you when committing genocide, it's not very intelligent and it keeps us, as a planet, in the poor condition we are currently in, in so many ways.

Your inability to address anything else in my post just goes to prove what a narrow view you have to take to maintain your unreasonable position. However I cannot blame you for ignoring it all as to genuinely address it would require a life changing shift of your consciousness.

I suggest you visit "Palestine" and see it for yourself. You obviously haven't as you have quite the wrong impression of it. I'll advise you to pay it a visit and you'll see it all from a different perspective. "Daily suffering"? You really do take everything the media feeds you seriously.

Actually, what I said about the IDF at the end, I know is true. I personally have friends who were in the forces and they have told me what exactly happens there. Have a look and witness it 1st hand. Not all soldiers are saints (as in all countries), agreed, but the army's ethos is to minimise civilian damage. All you have to do is go to Israel and see how the majority of Palestinians are treated by the armed forces and Israelis. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It isn't just bloodshed, conflict and suffering like you think.

Peace will never be a reality if they continue to elect terrorist parties into their Government. Every time Israel has given them land, they destroyed and burnt down all the buildings and establishments rather than benfit from them instead they used it to send rockets into Israel mainland...[/quote]

Nice try re visiting Palestine, I have several Palestinian friends and have worked with numerous aid workers who have spent time a lot of time there. I have all the first hand accounts I need from very calm, open minded, love based people. Funnily enough they don't all tally with your soldier friends' reports but nevermind, that is not really the point in this thread for me.

I have shown how the use of the word 'terrorist' and just who gets to assign such a word to whom is all smokescreen. Our, the US and Israel's military actions are all forms of terrorism. Israel and the Jewish people there are just being used. I truly hope that wiser, more evolved, less fear based consciousnesses than yours are making the decisions when the US backing disappears.

I take it from the simplistic nature of some of your statements (including your final paragraph) that you are quite young, I genuinely hope life shows you a greater understanding of humanity and our connection to each other than your current PR led programming of 'they deserve what they get'. It is the ONLY way forward.

I think that's more than enough from me in this thread.
Much love.
"I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word in reality" - Martin Luther King, Jr.

User avatar
Dunc
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1639
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:06 pm
Contact:

Post by Dunc » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:03 pm

I'd like to know how Israel are in a position to be giving anyone land - is it because they took it by conquest after not respecting internationally recognised borders?!

Also:
avigar wrote:All you have to do is go to Israel and see how the majority of Palestinians are treated by the armed forces and Israelis. You'll be pleasantly surprised. It isn't just bloodshed, conflict and suffering like you think.
I have been to Israel and this is in stark contrast to what I saw there, as well as the wealth of evidence to the contrary.
'Live every week like it is shark week'

User avatar
Micky
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 8101
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:46 pm

Post by Micky » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:03 pm

1 Bobby Hazell wrote:
Stan wrote:The death count is such a "talking point" Red Herring. Its like saying "twice as many Germans died in WW2 than Americans & British deaths combined (which they did) therefore the Germans were the good guys".

Who do you think your fooling Bobby? It means nothing except that Israel provides air raid shelters for her citizens.
'Death count ... red Herring.' The casual use of such a phrase only serves to back up my points.

I'm not attempting to fool anyone Stan, if you believe that the extra Palestinian deaths are down to use of Air Raid Shelters and nothing to do with Israel's murderous foreign policy then so be it, your mind set is well entenched and sadly seems beyond change.

I agree with Don and Biscuit re 1 death is enough, my use of figures is an attempt to get you to look at your own anger (leading to genocide justification) due to the Israeli deaths and then put yourself in Palestinian shoes with their number of deaths to deal with and see how their militant thinkers are of the same mindset as you. If you were a Palestinian you would be equally, if not more, in the consciousness of 'destroy my enemy before he destroys me'. It is this consciousness, on both sides of any conflict, which keeps war and destruction alive in all mass violence on this planet. I believe this is what Rblock is also saying.

If it were the Palestinians receiving billions of dollars from the US and occupying Israel, rest assured I would see them the same way. Just as I condemn my own government for its murderous intentions and actions, so poorly disguised as neccesary or 'good' by PR for the simple of thought.

Personally I feel for the people of Israel, I am sure they are being used by the US for their own Middle East Unsettlement requirements and when the 'game' reaches a new stage they will be abandoned. Never forget that the system that so handsomely funds Israel now is the same one that funded the Nazi's. They will use any 'cause' or 'people' who serve them at a particular time but will dump them at the drop of hat when it suits.

Love is the key and the ONLY way.

And Don, New Seekers :lol:
Interesting stuff Bobby however you lost me here.

Please forgive me if I'm missing something obvious but which system funded the Nazi's and now funds Israel?

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org vip
dot.org vip
Posts: 20556
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Post by Esox Lucius » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:04 pm

The Skulls 8)
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

User avatar
Spiritof76
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3833
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:14 pm
Location: North Beds

Post by Spiritof76 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 4:58 pm

rblockells wrote:Excellent post there from 1BH.

And yes,you were SPOT ON in your assessment of what I was saying(or attempting to say).

The Palestinians and Israelis are all human beings,all share the same nitrogen in their DNA,calcium in their teeth,and iron in their blood.

We are all individual parts of the same whole,and made from the same stuff,the interiors of collapsing stars...but that's another story... :wink:
Agreed a very thought provoking post by 1BH. My only correction would be of the word 'consciousness', personally I think 'unconsciousness' fits better. And it is that, that has to change if we are to avoid extinction as a species. Time to wake up folks!
“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”

Post Reply