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deepseahoop
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Post by deepseahoop » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:34 am

Agreed Dave if an agency of the state want you to prove who you are then you will, we're all on a list somewhere having an actual physical ID card means nothing.
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DAVEf
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Post by DAVEf » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:54 pm

"Freedom" is an illusion.

Even on a desert island with no "state" (or anyone else) what one can and cannot do is clearly still limited.

And an illusion of freedom is obviously(?) better than not even having the illusion (especially it comes with many actual "freedoms")?
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rblockells
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Post by rblockells » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:50 am

DAVEf wrote:"Freedom" is an illusion.

Even on a desert island with no "state" (or anyone else) what one can and cannot do is clearly still limited.

And an illusion of freedom is obviously(?) better than not even having the illusion (especially it comes with many actual "freedoms")?
Without wishing to enter into a philosophical debate regarding the definition of freedom,why should we have COMPULSORY ID cards?

I am yet to hear a convincing argument.
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not.Both ideas are overwhelming.

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DAVEf
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Post by DAVEf » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:17 pm

rblockells wrote:
DAVEf wrote:"Freedom" is an illusion.

Even on a desert island with no "state" (or anyone else) what one can and cannot do is clearly still limited.

And an illusion of freedom is obviously(?) better than not even having the illusion (especially it comes with many actual "freedoms")?
Without wishing to enter into a philosophical debate regarding the definition of freedom,why should we have COMPULSORY ID cards?

I am yet to hear a convincing argument.
There you go.

And it wouldn't matter if we had the assorted choirs from the World's top ten opera houses singing out all that's already been put to you.

If you are not willing to listen the debate become redundant.

So ah'm oot [Duncan Bannatyne emoticon]
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deepseahoop
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Post by deepseahoop » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:27 pm

rblockells wrote:
DAVEf wrote:"Freedom" is an illusion.

Even on a desert island with no "state" (or anyone else) what one can and cannot do is clearly still limited.

And an illusion of freedom is obviously(?) better than not even having the illusion (especially it comes with many actual "freedoms")?
Without wishing to enter into a philosophical debate regarding the definition of freedom,why should we have COMPULSORY ID cards?

I am yet to hear a convincing argument.
i think the original pouint was that you already have ID cards.

I used to work with a guy who was into dance music and thought he was cool and really "underground" but he had a national insurance number so in fact he was just a deluded wannabe!!
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Post by WA Hoop » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:30 pm

In Australia, your driving licence is, to all intents and purposes, your 'unofficial' ID card. You can't even buy a mobile phone or pick up a parcel from the post office without producing it.

Heaven help you if you don't hold a driving licence.
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Post by rblockells » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:43 am

Interesting to hear about Australia and the driving licence.I wonder what non-drivers do when they need ID?

Of course, the arguments about the fact that we all have various forms of ID,like passports,driving licenses,debit/credit cards all stack-up...BUT then why would we need compulsory ID cards??

I am more than willing to listen to a compelling argument in their favour.
Either we are alone in the Universe or we are not.Both ideas are overwhelming.

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Post by deepseahoop » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:00 pm

Obviously so the police can stop you in the street and check if you're an alien, an illegal alien, a crook or some other unacceptable and deal with you accordingly. Should clear the buses and trains nicely around your neck of the woods 'Ells
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Post by Esox Lucius » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:12 pm

If people were implanted with ID microchips at birth it would make catching criminals and terrorists a lot easier in the future. IMO of course. If you haven't done anything wrong then there's nothing to fear.
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Post by DAVEf » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:42 am

Esox Lucius wrote:If people were implanted with ID microchips at birth it would make catching criminals and terrorists a lot easier in the future. IMO of course. If you haven't done anything wrong then there's nothing to fear.
Life would be boring if we never did anything wrong. And who hasn't? I have. Occasionally. Hopefully outweighed by the good things.

Of course who defines what is "wrong" is actually the point that messes everything up.

But, just now, we live in a high-tech World and the threats from the baddies are high-tech so to protect us we need high-tech methods. It's not rocket brainery. What happens in the future will happen. We can only live (and deal with potential threats) now.

I suspect anyone burgled/mugged/car-jacked or who has suffered through terrorism or whatever might be a bit more inclined to be in favour of ID cards than luckier folk who have, so far, remained relatively untouched by the nastinesses of the modern World?

And of course the application of modern medical techniques will be far more likely to save lives if patients (and their blood groups etc) can be identified quickly.

Of course having compulsory ID cards wouldn't be part of a perfect World --- but then neither would having to go to bed early, eating your greens, bullying, unrequited love, reality TV, Colds, itchyness and certain football clubs be either. It's all surely a question of how mature one is in accepting the balancing of cost against profit.
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Post by WA Hoop » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:01 am

rblockells wrote:Interesting to hear about Australia and the driving licence.I wonder what non-drivers do when they need ID?

Of course, the arguments about the fact that we all have various forms of ID,like passports,driving licenses,debit/credit cards all stack-up...BUT then why would we need compulsory ID cards??

I am more than willing to listen to a compelling argument in their favour.

Ells, in the absence of a driving licence, it has to be a passport. Believe it or not, I've seen young Australian adults produce passports in bottle shops in order to prove they are over 18 years of age.
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Post by DAVEf » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:01 am

Might I suggest that one of the reasons we don't yet have compulsory IDs in the UK has little to with freedom and more to do with the (perceived by government?) usefulness of having a "grey" workforce which does the necessary menial jobs cheaply (they won't get done by legal residents because benefits pay better) and which also competes with lower paid legal workers thus keeping their demands and expectations down?

It also might explain why the criminals and dregs of so many nations are so keen to get into the UK. Obviously aided and abetted by government who sanction the release on bail of so many illegal immigrants who then just disappear again.

That might sound horribly right wing but it's not supposed to because I'm not against immigration (of any kind including financial) but so many seem to arrive and just find their illegal staus allows them to to be exploted cruelly (to their detriment and also that of the worst off UK nationals).
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deepseahoop
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Post by deepseahoop » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:13 pm

WA Hoop wrote:
rblockells wrote:Interesting to hear about Australia and the driving licence.I wonder what non-drivers do when they need ID?

Of course, the arguments about the fact that we all have various forms of ID,like passports,driving licenses,debit/credit cards all stack-up...BUT then why would we need compulsory ID cards??

I am more than willing to listen to a compelling argument in their favour.

Ells, in the absence of a driving licence, it has to be a passport. Believe it or not, I've seen young Australian adults produce passports in bottle shops in order to prove they are over 18 years of age.
I was denied a beer in LA once because my old style blue British passport was hand written, I've never been in that bar again or LA for that matter... losers!!
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Post by WA Hoop » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:48 am

Late 90's, I was asked for photo ID at the 'Cheers Bar' (Bull & Finch pub) in Boston. At the time I still had the old paper style U.K. driving licence and my passport was back in the hotel safe. Consequently, the bouncer let me in but refused to 'stamp my hand' (signifying that he had viewed my ID) whilst informing me that if the bar staff refused to serve me than so be it. I think I was 33 at the time! Suffice to say, the bar staff served me the fizzy p**s that passes for beer in the U.S.

If I recall, I was refused entry to the 'Purple Shamrock' as well...maybe, I just have one of those faces?!
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Post by ramrod » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:59 pm

Lets not refer them to Elite. They are far from it.
Not so bad living in the Shadows.

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