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rblockells
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Post by rblockells » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:09 am

We seem to have come full circle on this thread.

It started off with Mandelson and Clark pushing their pro-European agenda at the Blldeberg Group.

We,the people,cannot be expected to take our share of "the blame" for that.

It would also seem a little odd to blame the people for the atrocities committed by armed forces in many areas of the world,in the name of Governments,therefore the people,such as the use of depelted uranium by American troops in Iraq,Israeli attacks on the innocent in Gaza,genocide in Rwanda,Zimbabwe,Congo,Syria....and so on.

Coroprations cannot get off lightly either,when we take into account Fukushima,BP oil spills,Monanto's appaling record in India etc etc.

The big international banks are hardly acting in the peoples' interest either,as has been well documented.

The only "blame" to be laid at the door of the people is for believing that Governments,Corporations,and banks are acting in their interest and not from an agenda of greed,domination and lust for power at the expense of everyone else.
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Post by Lee Gib » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:01 am

rblockells wrote:The only "blame" to be laid at the door of the people is for believing that Governments,Corporations,and banks are acting in their interest and not from an agenda of greed,domination and lust for power at the expense of everyone else.
Maybe this is the point ells. You mentioned some ancient civilisations earlier and said we can't emulate what they achieved. So they did some great things without the tools and the knowhow we have today, it doesn't make them better. But behind even those empires were greedy, selfish, power hunger people that didn't give a second thought for the suffering of lesser men.

So what's changed?

As bad as power can be in the wrong hands, perhaps it's that same greed that has driven human advance through the ages. Greed is part of our DNA.

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Post by rblockells » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:23 am

Lee Gib...not denying any of that.

Shame really,those that are better at being greedy get to to the top and those are not so good at it get trampled on.

Throughout history,many of those who have spoken out against greed and corruption get bumped-off.

If our glorious leaders have nothing to hide,then why are these meetings held behind closed doors?
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Post by DAVEf » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:27 pm

rblockells wrote:Lee Gib...not denying any of that.

Shame really,those that are better at being greedy get to to the top and those are not so good at it get trampled on.

Throughout history,many of those who have spoken out against greed and corruption get bumped-off.

If our glorious leaders have nothing to hide,then why are these meetings held behind closed doors
?

To keep the cold out?

Simple concern for energy efficiency. eangel
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Post by deepseahoop » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:59 pm

Ells you need to get out more, how about starting with Man City tomorrow!
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Post by DAVEf » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:27 pm

Let's not forget that many (all?) the big corporations are listed on stock exchanges and so are technically in public ownership. They represent the greedy ambitious side of the the people and institutions (like pension shemes) that invest in them.

Any corporation that publicly announced they were going to radically follow ethical and green policies which would affect re-investment and dividends would find it wouldn't be long before people withdrew their investments (after all, who would want to see their savings disappear) and the company would go down the drain.

It'd be nice to think there was some room for manoeuvre but while share-holding is still a major form of saving (eg the USA) companies paying the best dividends will always attract the majority of investors. And the least ethical are always likely to do best.

Tax companies to force them to pay for their sins and they'll just base themselves in countries which are willing to welcome them. The only way round that is to pull all countries up to First World levels and eradicate corruption (hmmmm???).

So maybe we have to get past the natural greed/needs/wants of the ordinary folk who are supposedly the ones suffering at the hands of corporate evil.

Or we have to find a new system that's fairer than Capitalism, more workable than Communism and nicer than Totalitarianism. And acceptable to the whole of Humanity.

And that's without allowing for the influences of religion.


So anyone got any idea? eangel
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Post by rblockells » Tue Jan 29, 2013 10:39 am

It's a difficult one Dave,that's for sure.

Although there have been occasions where boycotts,and other forms of public pressure have altered company policy.

Change.org seem to be sending out more and more petitions that HAVE made a difference.

Greenpeace are currently campaigning to stop Shell drilling in huge areas of the Arctic.

Think back to the toppling of apartheid in South Africa,many countries around the world boycotted South African goods.

The dilemmas will always arise for individuals under the current system,as it is very difficult to put the needs of your great great grandchildren above your immediate needs.

As a hypothetical scenario,let's imagine you are working for an investment bank,and as far you are aware,the work in which you have been involved is,to the best of your knowledge,ethical.You find out one day that you have been instrumental in funding arms purchases that have led to the killing of individuals in some far flung corner of the globe.This disturbs you,so you go to your boss to complain about it.He offers you a promotion and a six-figure bonus to keep quiet about it?What do you do?

It's not easy,if you resign on a point of principle,you could be accused by family and friends of putting your ideals before the material well-being of your family.

If you take the money and the promotion,you have to live with the fact that indirectly you are involved in killing people.

There are no easy answers.
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Post by Parks Queen » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:10 pm

DAVEf wrote:Let's not forget that many (all?) the big corporations are listed on stock exchanges and so are technically in public ownership. They represent the greedy ambitious side of the the people and institutions (like pension shemes) that invest in them.

Any corporation that publicly announced they were going to radically follow ethical and green policies which would affect re-investment and dividends would find it wouldn't be long before people withdrew their investments (after all, who would want to see their savings disappear) and the company would go down the drain.

It'd be nice to think there was some room for manoeuvre but while share-holding is still a major form of saving (eg the USA) companies paying the best dividends will always attract the majority of investors. And the least ethical are always likely to do best.

Tax companies to force them to pay for their sins and they'll just base themselves in countries which are willing to welcome them. The only way round that is to pull all countries up to First World levels and eradicate corruption (hmmmm???).

So maybe we have to get past the natural greed/needs/wants of the ordinary folk who are supposedly the ones suffering at the hands of corporate evil.

Or we have to find a new system that's fairer than Capitalism, more workable than Communism and nicer than Totalitarianism. And acceptable to the whole of Humanity.

And that's without allowing for the influences of religion.


So anyone got any idea? eangel
Well, the Chinese and other repressive regimes -- or at least their people -- seem to be wanting to rediscover some parts of their past, mainly their Confucian past. Some of them attribute the popularity of the "Korean wave" to their affinity with Korean neo-Confucian ethics. They are receptive to this train of thought, and so are the North Koreans. It is not a religion but a governing and hierarchical philosophy. Dogma and orthodoxy have long plagued it, but this is a link to these cultures. A lingo, that we may find useful. It is a point of reference from which we can build.


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Post by rblockells » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:20 am

Parks Queen wrote:
DAVEf wrote:Let's not forget that many (all?) the big corporations are listed on stock exchanges and so are technically in public ownership. They represent the greedy ambitious side of the the people and institutions (like pension shemes) that invest in them.

Any corporation that publicly announced they were going to radically follow ethical and green policies which would affect re-investment and dividends would find it wouldn't be long before people withdrew their investments (after all, who would want to see their savings disappear) and the company would go down the drain.

It'd be nice to think there was some room for manoeuvre but while share-holding is still a major form of saving (eg the USA) companies paying the best dividends will always attract the majority of investors. And the least ethical are always likely to do best.

Tax companies to force them to pay for their sins and they'll just base themselves in countries which are willing to welcome them. The only way round that is to pull all countries up to First World levels and eradicate corruption (hmmmm???).

So maybe we have to get past the natural greed/needs/wants of the ordinary folk who are supposedly the ones suffering at the hands of corporate evil.

Or we have to find a new system that's fairer than Capitalism, more workable than Communism and nicer than Totalitarianism. And acceptable to the whole of Humanity.

And that's without allowing for the influences of religion.


So anyone got any idea? eangel
Well, the Chinese and other repressive regimes -- or at least their people -- seem to be wanting to rediscover some parts of their past, mainly their Confucian past. Some of them attribute the popularity of the "Korean wave" to their affinity with Korean neo-Confucian ethics. They are receptive to this train of thought, and so are the North Koreans. It is not a religion but a governing and hierarchical philosophy. Dogma and orthodoxy have long plagued it, but this is a link to these cultures. A lingo, that we may find useful. It is a point of reference from which we can build.


eangel
This is happening worldwide.

There has been an increase in people wanting to find out more about ancient indigenous beliefs.

In the US there are numerous groups studying the beliefs of Native Americans;in Australia,the same applies with Aborigines.

Could it be that there is a growing disillusionment with modern life and a searching for something more meaningful?

I don't know...a cursory look at the growth of "new-age"philosophy,would suggest there may be something in this.

(Although "new age" seems oddly named,when a lot of the beliefs surrounding it are ancient)
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Post by Don » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:22 pm

Most of these "ancient indigenous beliefs" died out because they were rubbish.

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Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:30 pm

Native North Americans biggest failing was to trust the word of politicians. A warning that holds true to this day.
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Post by rblockells » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:47 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:Native North Americans biggest failing was to trust the word of politicians. A warning that holds true to this day.
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Post by DAVEf » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:43 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:Native North Americans biggest failing was to trust the word of politicians. A warning that holds true to this day.

Or was it the words of their own egos and those of priests and their gods?

Or are they all the same thing?
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Post by Parks Queen » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:46 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:Native North Americans biggest failing was to trust the word of politicians. A warning that holds true to this day.
I don't think in godly men they trusted, so much as they were forced into trusting having run out of options. The politicians of those dayze were only serving their constituents, after all. It was a popular thing to do. Location location location. I hear back in those days the hip salutation "GOOOOOOOOOOAAAAALD" was used whenever they (less politician and more militarily persuasive types) ran into strange people. It roughly translates into: How do you do, strainja. How about you give me your best lands, your queen to impregnate, and pay us for our services with those shiny metal objects? Now these regular folks pretend they NEVAH backed any of these bloodsuckers, and NEVAH did agree with them in the first place.


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Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:54 pm

Rather than reply in piecemeal fashion to both Dave & PQ may I respectfully suggest you both read at your leisure a book entitled "Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee" by Dee Brown. A truly sobering catalogue of broken promises and betrayal. Due to their inherently tribal nature they were in part responsible for their own downfall but this was an element that was strongly played upon by the burgeoning American government and it's military arm.
Last edited by Esox Lucius on Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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