Bright

Serious QPR topics only. Posted images may be deleted. Off-topic or thread hijacking posts will be moved/removed and posters disallowed access to this forum. NO TICKET RELATED POSTS. ALL TICKET RELATED POSTS WILL BE DELETED. NO EXCEPTIONS. Please put ticket related posts in the right place only.

Moderators: nige101uk, willesdenr, qprdotorgadmin, ZENITH R, Virginia_R

User avatar
Andy_N19
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:37 pm

Re: Bright

Post by Andy_N19 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:15 pm

Cardinal Manning! :D
Staff Benda Bilili

User avatar
n22hoop
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1567
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:09 am
Location: Northern Britain

Re: Bright

Post by n22hoop » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:30 pm

UxbridgeR wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 9:11 am
n22hoop wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:03 am
UxbridgeR wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:08 am


How do we know someone won't offer more if we stand our ground ? It's not as if the transfer window closes tomorrow, after all. BOS and Eze are the two most exciting young players we've had in years. If we can't get decent money for these two, then we're wasting our time with the current model. We regularly see the likes of Brentford and Bristol City selling players for £10/15/20M. We get less than £5M and everyone shrugs their shoulders. Thoroughly depressing.
We're not selling the player, we're selling a year of his contract. We don't OWN the player. I think almost 5m for a young unproven player with 1 year left on his contract is good business.
It''s long-established football parlance to talk about selling players, but OK, I'll rephrase the question. How do the likes of Brentford and Bristol City regularly pull in fees of £10-£20M for the remaining years of unproven young players contracts ?

Leeds got £10M for Jack Clarke just last year. Clarke is admittedly younger, but BOS has a lot more games under his belt. Would you rather have Clarke or BOS in your team just now, and is the former really worth twice the latter ?
Just now I'd rather have BOS, goes without saying. And, on current form, no Clark is not worth twice the price of BOS. But again it comes back to the contract duration. If BOS had 4 years left on his contract then we might have expected 10+ million for him. Simply comparing 4.7m and 10m is not a like for like comparison of the true value of the players.

I just don't understand folks on here making statements like we don't get big fees when we sell players. We generally get what they're worth. My opinion of course.
"Football is the love of form. A spectacle that scarcely leaves a trace in the memory and does not enrich or impoverish knowledge. This is its appeal : it is exciting and empty." Mario Vargas Llosa

User avatar
UxbridgeR
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 10265
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Bright

Post by UxbridgeR » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:05 pm

I agree that contract length is a factor. It helped us get a decent fee for Freeman, when he would otherwise have gone for very little. I'd also argue that contract negotiation is a skill In itself and another important factor. Burnley paid Bristol City £9M for Josh Brownhill in January, when he had 18 months left on his contract. He's a pretty unremarkable midfielder, while BOS is a potential match winner and in the form of his life. If we can't get a premium for a player like him under those circumstances, I don't see how we ever will. Manning has a year left, so we can presumably expect very little there, and I guess we need to push Eze out the door as soon as possible, to avoid being in the same situation with him in a year's time.
Are headphones getting bigger, or are idiots getting smaller ?

Satch
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3906
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:34 am
Location: New York City

Re: Bright

Post by Satch » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:30 pm

Rbee wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:41 pm
He will have had other offers but Champions League football is certainly enticing and with his pace he will make an impact at some point.
I respect him for backing himself and getting out of his comfort zone. Although it sounds like it may have forced our hand as once that offer came in, that was the only option he would accept.

I was hoping we'd get 8m for him but we all probably overrate our players a bit. There doesn't sound like there has been much of a bidding war, possibly as it was clear what his preferred choice was or perhaps that's an indicator of how the market rated him.

I do feel that Brentford get a slight premium due to the reputation for quantitative analysis and the number of players they've produced. I suspect also due to their statistic driven approach they use, their players look very appealing 'on paper'. At some point, i think their bubble will burst as a lot of these players don't quite perform at the same level outside of the Brentford system. They are also investing in higher initial fees so it's not surprising some of their signings go for more.

I think we would have paid more than the 100k suggested above but i'm sure it was sub 1m, 500k is being suggested. A 10x return is excellent work, what he need to be able to do is use this fee and do the same with players in the 3m bracket so we can see much bigger actual returns.

User avatar
Systemsguy
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5493
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:19 pm

Re: Bright

Post by Systemsguy » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:37 pm

Club can't win, offer a player a long contract like SWP all those years ago in 2011 and as long as he turns up for training, never be picked and sit out his contract collecting his dough until 2015 ..... Absolutely no resale value

Rowan Vine was the same before him when Warnock even tried to bluff him into tearing up his contract (his agent no doubt advised him not too!)....

You can't force a player to sign an extension and a player can have the whip hand ala Charlie with his decision he wanted to go to Southampton and the cut price we got for him thanks to it....

Yes Manning and Eze are still issues as they only have a year left but a confirmed sale of BOS fills the coffers and we can hopefully negotiate a better deal for either....
2020/2021.... Keep Calm, no matter the season, we'll follow our team.....

Image

User avatar
Montag
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 4732
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: Bright

Post by Montag » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:40 pm

Those of us who witnessed his goal at a freezing St Andrews last winter know he's worth more than this. Nonetheless, good luck to the lad and let's hope we can fill the gap.
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org vip
dot.org vip
Posts: 21434
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: Bright

Post by Esox Lucius » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:46 pm

Satch wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:30 pm
Rbee wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:41 pm
He will have had other offers but Champions League football is certainly enticing and with his pace he will make an impact at some point.
I respect him for backing himself and getting out of his comfort zone. Although it sounds like it may have forced our hand as once that offer came in, that was the only option he would accept.

I was hoping we'd get 8m for him but we all probably overrate our players a bit. There doesn't sound like there has been much of a bidding war, possibly as it was clear what his preferred choice was or perhaps that's an indicator of how the market rated him.

I do feel that Brentford get a slight premium due to the reputation for quantitative analysis and the number of players they've produced. I suspect also due to their statistic driven approach they use, their players look very appealing 'on paper'. At some point, i think their bubble will burst as a lot of these players don't quite perform at the same level outside of the Brentford system. They are also investing in higher initial fees so it's not surprising some of their signings go for more.

I think we would have paid more than the 100k suggested above but i'm sure it was sub 1m, 500k is being suggested. A 10x return is excellent work, what he need to be able to do is use this fee and do the same with players in the 3m bracket so we can see much bigger actual returns.
We didn't pay a lot for BOS as he was at the end of his Blackpool contract and we bought him for our U23 squad to avoid his signing being accounted for under FFP.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

User avatar
WA Hoop
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5780
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:04 pm
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Bright

Post by WA Hoop » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:19 am

At the time I remember reading that we paid 750K for BOS, although I can't recall the source. I'm disappointed to see him go and the fee feels a bit low even considering the time left on his contract but I guess he's still a long way off being the 'finished article'.
Question everything.

User avatar
dm
dot.org player kit 2007
dot.org player kit 2007
Posts: 13565
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 5:21 pm
Location: Just over the border...

Re: Bright

Post by dm » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:52 am

Our initial bid for BOS was £750k which was rejected. We were then successful with a second bid of around £1m but the exact fee was never confirmed on the media.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 6569
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Bright

Post by QPR_John » Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:21 am

He's not the finished article and there is only one year left on his contract all good reasons for explaining the fee but why do we always seemingly get into that position. Other clubs seem to handle transfers so much better than us.

User avatar
n22hoop
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1567
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:09 am
Location: Northern Britain

Re: Bright

Post by n22hoop » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:08 am

I wonder if there's any credibility to paper talk of Leicester & Brighton also being interested in BOS? Could potentially nudge the fee up a little.
"Football is the love of form. A spectacle that scarcely leaves a trace in the memory and does not enrich or impoverish knowledge. This is its appeal : it is exciting and empty." Mario Vargas Llosa

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org vip
dot.org vip
Posts: 21434
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: Bright

Post by Esox Lucius » Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:52 am

QPR_John wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:21 am
He's not the finished article and there is only one year left on his contract all good reasons for explaining the fee but why do we always seemingly get into that position. Other clubs seem to handle transfers so much better than us.
Just musings, but maybe young players see us as a stepping stone. They know we will take young players and give them a chance to play in the first team whilst offering them a good standard of technical coaching. The downside being that they know we won't be paying them what they hope they will be worth at the end of that first contract. This would seem to be a determining factor in the cases of Austin, Freeman (although he did us a solid by signing a long term contract just before being sold) BOS and, possibly, Manning next.
We know Freeman is receiving £32.5k a week at Sheff. Utd. (It's researchable for EPL teams) Austin will be on something similar at WBA. Darnell is likely to be picking up £15k or more based on WBA accounts. These are figures that we are currently unable to match without risking FFP failure.
For perspective, I was talking to Ben Wells, the U23 player we signed from WHU, the season before last in the QPR fanzone and the subject of wages was discussed. He didn't name names but did say that most of the U23's get between £300-600 for their 1st professional contract. Ali Omar who was also with us confirmed this and said this was the case. From other parts of this conversation, but just based on hearsay, Joe Lumley is on about £1.5k a week and Eze on £3.8k a week. This was before Eze's contract extension but is likely to have been more than double what he was on.
This is the field in which QPR are currently operating financially and the brutal truth is that we attract players who want to use us as a stepping stone or rejects we pick up and polish and sell for what we can get. We look to be on the verge of selling BOS for approx six times what we paid for him. That would be a good return on any investment, especially with less than a year to go on his contract.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 6569
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: Bright

Post by QPR_John » Sun Jul 19, 2020 11:25 am

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:52 am
QPR_John wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:21 am
He's not the finished article and there is only one year left on his contract all good reasons for explaining the fee but why do we always seemingly get into that position. Other clubs seem to handle transfers so much better than us.
Just musings, but maybe young players see us as a stepping stone. They know we will take young players and give them a chance to play in the first team whilst offering them a good standard of technical coaching. The downside being that they know we won't be paying them what they hope they will be worth at the end of that first contract. This would seem to be a determining factor in the cases of Austin, Freeman (although he did us a solid by signing a long term contract just before being sold) BOS and, possibly, Manning next.
We know Freeman is receiving £32.5k a week at Sheff. Utd. (It's researchable for EPL teams) Austin will be on something similar at WBA. Darnell is likely to be picking up £15k or more based on WBA accounts. These are figures that we are currently unable to match without risking FFP failure.
For perspective, I was talking to Ben Wells, the U23 player we signed from WHU, the season before last in the QPR fanzone and the subject of wages was discussed. He didn't name names but did say that most of the U23's get between £300-600 for their 1st professional contract. Ali Omar who was also with us confirmed this and said this was the case. From other parts of this conversation, but just based on hearsay, Joe Lumley is on about £1.5k a week and Eze on £3.8k a week. This was before Eze's contract extension but is likely to have been more than double what he was on.
This is the field in which QPR are currently operating financially and the brutal truth is that we attract players who want to use us as a stepping stone or rejects we pick up and polish and sell for what we can get. We look to be on the verge of selling BOS for approx six times what we paid for him. That would be a good return on any investment, especially with less than a year to go on his contract.
"Just musings, but maybe young players see us as a stepping stone."

Still does not explain why other clubs get big fees for their young players. Do these players not see other clubs as stepping stones to something better. I doubt it but those clubs still get value for money when they sell.

User avatar
UxbridgeR
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 10265
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: Bright

Post by UxbridgeR » Sun Jul 19, 2020 12:29 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 9:52 am
QPR_John wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 6:21 am
He's not the finished article and there is only one year left on his contract all good reasons for explaining the fee but why do we always seemingly get into that position. Other clubs seem to handle transfers so much better than us.
Just musings, but maybe young players see us as a stepping stone. They know we will take young players and give them a chance to play in the first team whilst offering them a good standard of technical coaching. The downside being that they know we won't be paying them what they hope they will be worth at the end of that first contract. This would seem to be a determining factor in the cases of Austin, Freeman (although he did us a solid by signing a long term contract just before being sold) BOS and, possibly, Manning next.
We know Freeman is receiving £32.5k a week at Sheff. Utd. (It's researchable for EPL teams) Austin will be on something similar at WBA. Darnell is likely to be picking up £15k or more based on WBA accounts. These are figures that we are currently unable to match without risking FFP failure.
For perspective, I was talking to Ben Wells, the U23 player we signed from WHU, the season before last in the QPR fanzone and the subject of wages was discussed. He didn't name names but did say that most of the U23's get between £300-600 for their 1st professional contract. Ali Omar who was also with us confirmed this and said this was the case. From other parts of this conversation, but just based on hearsay, Joe Lumley is on about £1.5k a week and Eze on £3.8k a week. This was before Eze's contract extension but is likely to have been more than double what he was on.
This is the field in which QPR are currently operating financially and the brutal truth is that we attract players who want to use us as a stepping stone or rejects we pick up and polish and sell for what we can get. We look to be on the verge of selling BOS for approx six times what we paid for him. That would be a good return on any investment, especially with less than a year to go on his contract.
It is a good return, but I still can't help feeling that we're a bit of a soft touch when it comes to transfer negotiations. To really make the current model work for us, we'll have to capitalise on opportunities like this one with BOS, and less then £5M really won't go very far. I doubt Warburton will see more than a small fraction of it, and he'll be expected to bring in another 8-10 recruits in the close season and start again without his best players. Then fans will be on his back two months into next season when we have a bad run.

The other problem with this argument is that logically, we should be happy with a million or two for Eze, since we paid nothing for him. We've often been shafted on outgoing transfer fees, but it hardly ever seems to work the other way around. It doesn't seem unreasonable to question that.

By the way, where can you research EPL player wages ?
Are headphones getting bigger, or are idiots getting smaller ?

User avatar
Andy_N19
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3856
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:37 pm

Re: Bright

Post by Andy_N19 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 2:36 pm

Systemsguy wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:16 pm
Our last two players who went for some significant money (Smithies and Freeman) have hardly set the world on fire since leaving us but we undersold them apparently.....
Which is my biggest fear for Eze, the odds are that he will go the way of Freeman which is a real shame,
yesterday's goal was sheer class from him and he as usual was the best player on the pitch.
Staff Benda Bilili

Post Reply