Jack Robinson watch

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UxbridgeR
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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by UxbridgeR » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:34 pm

It's a proper Armageddon scenario, but despite the conspiracy theorists' view that the FL have got it in for us, I can't see how it's in anyone's interests to enforce a fine that literally puts the club out of business.

I don't believe it will come to that, but since we insist on prolonging the agony, we'll have this cloud hanging over us for a few more years yet.
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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by ANDREW1302 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:35 pm

Conjecture based on logic only but with some understanding of the structure. TF is making promises but will he keep them? His record so far would say unlikely. Also why would he pay out £40m FFP for a club worth a lot less than that?

FL do not have the same powers as HMRC but they would simply appoint someone to chase the debt and serve a winding up order when it isn't paid. So process is the same .

If FFP goes against us my conjecture is we are in big trouble as it gives the investors an excuse to get out . It would not look great for the FL but they probably won't care and will use us an example of what will happen to naughty boys. If there is a deal on FFP then my conjecture is TF under pressure from the investors will look to sell the club for whatever he can get.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by Rbee » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm

ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:35 pm
If there is a deal on FFP then my conjecture is TF under pressure from the investors will look to sell the club for whatever he can get.
TF is no longer the majority shareholder remember although I doubt this would complicate matters too much as all investors would no doubt agree on getting out. One has to wonder if TF is already paving the way for his exit.

UxbridgeR wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:34 pm
It's a proper Armageddon scenario, but despite the conspiracy theorists' view that the FL have got it in for us, I can't see how it's in anyone's interests to enforce a fine that literally puts the club out of business.
My theory now is that the FL are really just wanting to save face. Therefore a few million pounds up front and a suspended sentence over a few seasons might be the way forward.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by 222gers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm

ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:35 pm
Conjecture based on logic only but with some understanding of the structure. TF is making promises but will he keep them? His record so far would say unlikely. Also why would he pay out £40m FFP for a club worth a lot less than that?

FL do not have the same powers as HMRC but they would simply appoint someone to chase the debt and serve a winding up order when it isn't paid. So process is the same .

If FFP goes against us my conjecture is we are in big trouble as it gives the investors an excuse to get out . It would not look great for the FL but they probably won't care and will use us an example of what will happen to naughty boys. If there is a deal on FFP then my conjecture is TF under pressure from the investors will look to sell the club for whatever he can get.
Surely the fine cannot be classed as a debt as no money has changed hands as it would have done if we were talking of, say, a loan. If the club folds the FL will have noone to chase so will get sod all. Either the FL will have to reduce the loan to something more sensible or substitute a demotion or points deduction.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by ANDREW1302 » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:12 pm

222gers. Yes you are right. The FL have the power to impose a fine legally. It is not going to get paid so they have a choice - points deduction , relegation maybe 2 leagues [ conjecture] , transfer embargo etc or ..... wind us up.

I suppose the unmentioned to date but maybe more than possible is to drop us to Div 2 . It is a thought. Big punishment but takes FL off the hook.

All this assumes we lose of course.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by QPR_John » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:37 pm

UxbridgeR wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:34 pm
It's a proper Armageddon scenario, but despite the conspiracy theorists' view that the FL have got it in for us, I can't see how it's in anyone's interests to enforce a fine that literally puts the club out of business.

I don't believe it will come to that, but since we insist on prolonging the agony, we'll have this cloud hanging over us for a few more years yet.
It would be interesting to know exactly the boards case for appeal. I think now it is clear we broke the rules, the independent panel came out against us. However they oddly upheld the punishment which I still believe the FL was hoping they would not. I can only assume it is this fine that is being appealed

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by QPR_John » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:39 pm

ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:12 pm
222gers. Yes you are right. The FL have the power to impose a fine legally. It is not going to get paid so they have a choice - points deduction , relegation maybe 2 leagues [ conjecture] , transfer embargo etc or ..... wind us up.

I suppose the unmentioned to date but maybe more than possible is to drop us to Div 2 . It is a thought. Big punishment but takes FL off the hook.

All this assumes we lose of course.
Depends on the rules regarding non payment of fine. I thought that a fine was the only punishment in our case.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by 222gers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 pm

ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:12 pm
222gers. Yes you are right. The FL have the power to impose a fine legally. It is not going to get paid so they have a choice - points deduction , relegation maybe 2 leagues [ conjecture] , transfer embargo etc or ..... wind us up.

I suppose the unmentioned to date but maybe more than possible is to drop us to Div 2 . It is a thought. Big punishment but takes FL off the hook.

All this assumes we lose of course.
Relegation to div 1 wouldn't be the end of the world - better than being forced out of existence. I assume a transfer embargo would only cover inward transfers leaving us open to players being transferred out which some of 'em would probably be keen on.

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by QPR_John » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:59 pm

222gers wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:41 pm
ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:12 pm
222gers. Yes you are right. The FL have the power to impose a fine legally. It is not going to get paid so they have a choice - points deduction , relegation maybe 2 leagues [ conjecture] , transfer embargo etc or ..... wind us up.

I suppose the unmentioned to date but maybe more than possible is to drop us to Div 2 . It is a thought. Big punishment but takes FL off the hook.

All this assumes we lose of course.
Relegation to div 1 wouldn't be the end of the world - better than being forced out of existence. I assume a transfer embargo would only cover inward transfers leaving us open to players being transferred out which some of 'em would probably be keen on.
You would think but any organisation that can see an effective punishment For going into debt is to increase that debt is capable of anything

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by ZENITH R » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 pm

I thought the owners had said they would cover any FFP fine. As in they would pay it out of their own pockets.

The irony is ... the fine was imposed because the owners spent their own money funding the club, and here they are agreeing to pay the fine again out of their own money.

FFP is one of those things that looks good on paper, sounds good when discussed around a committee table, but is a total non-starter when put into practice.

The biggest fault is the clubs in the football league differ in structure, size, potential earnings, and in a 100 other ways (business rates for example much higher in London) so overheads differ etc etc. Therefore it's very difficult to be consistent and dangerous to start setting precedents.

That means any punishment isn't going to be consistent, as it will be calculated on an individual basis.

That is where the nightmare begins. At the moment it's just us ... but once Bournemouth get relegated (which will happen sooner or later) or if Wolves find the Premier League harder than the Championship, or Barnsley if they decide to spend some of the money invested in them.

The bottom line is ... how does a club like Hartlepool get to play in the Premier League? Playing in the top division should be an ambition and attainable for every club in the country. FFP places an insurmountable barrier in the way. Or put another way - it's a closed shop as the rich get richer and the oiks continue to scrabble around in the dirt in the lower reaches far away from the millions generated by SKY and BT.

Pochettino's comments about Rochdale's pitch show how the big boys treat those below them with disdain. It's the FA Cup! Playing away on crappy pitches is an integral part of the magic of the FA Cup.
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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by 222gers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:23 pm

ZENITH R wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 pm
I thought the owners had said they would cover any FFP fine. As in they would pay it out of their own pockets.

The irony is ... the fine was imposed because the owners spent their own money funding the club, and here they are agreeing to pay the fine again out of their own money.

FFP is one of those things that looks good on paper, sounds good when discussed around a committee table, but is a total non-starter when put into practice.

The biggest fault is the clubs in the football league differ in structure, size, potential earnings, and in a 100 other ways (business rates for example much higher in London) so overheads differ etc etc. Therefore it's very difficult to be consistent and dangerous to start setting precedents.

That means any punishment isn't going to be consistent, as it will be calculated on an individual basis.

That is where the nightmare begins. At the moment it's just us ... but once Bournemouth get relegated (which will happen sooner or later) or if Wolves find the Premier League harder than the Championship, or Barnsley if they decide to spend some of the money invested in them.

The bottom line is ... how does a club like Hartlepool get to play in the Premier League? Playing in the top division should be an ambition and attainable for every club in the country. FFP places an insurmountable barrier in the way. Or put another way - it's a closed shop as the rich get richer and the oiks continue to scrabble around in the dirt in the lower reaches far away from the millions generated by SKY and BT.

Pochettino's comments about Rochdale's pitch show how the big boys treat those below them with disdain. It's the FA Cup! Playing away on crappy pitches is an integral part of the magic of the FA Cup.
Very good post Zenith with lots of very good points. The part that none of us seems to be able to get to the nub of, is are the owners allowed to pay the fine from their own considerable fortunes ? If the answer is yes then why were they not allowed to put such sums into the club in the first place. Search me......

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by Rbee » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:50 pm

If the owners are not allowed to pay the FFP fine they could always buy 800,000 replica shirts at £50 each

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by 222gers » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:56 pm

Rbee wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:50 pm
If the owners are not allowed to pay the FFP fine they could always buy 800,000 replica shirts at £50 each
Only Man City could get away with that. They would as well !

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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by White Duck » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:21 pm

ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:43 pm
oh and sorry my evidence is i was involved in the separation of the two assets so i know it to be true!

They won't fold the club to pay the fine. They will simply not pay it , the FL will take out a court order [ like you have seen HMRC do]. Nothing will be paid , the club will just fold as there are not sufficient assets to cover the cost. Administrators will be appointed to strip what is there.
You seriously believe the Football League would force the issue to the point where one of its member clubs folds because of their actions?

No chance.
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Re: Jack Robinson watch

Post by QPR_John » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:43 pm

White Duck wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:21 pm
ANDREW1302 wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:43 pm
oh and sorry my evidence is i was involved in the separation of the two assets so i know it to be true!

They won't fold the club to pay the fine. They will simply not pay it , the FL will take out a court order [ like you have seen HMRC do]. Nothing will be paid , the club will just fold as there are not sufficient assets to cover the cost. Administrators will be appointed to strip what is there.
You seriously believe the Football League would force the issue to the point where one of its member clubs folds because of their actions?

No chance.
As this nonsense has not been settled after all this time you can only conclude the FL are determined to get their pound of flesh in which case they would not be bothered if we folded.

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