Ollie

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SheepRanger
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Re: Ollie

Post by SheepRanger » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:35 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:32 am
222gers wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 am
Holloway's job is safe. Not least because the club is in no position to fork out for compensation and offer enough dough for a new manager to come in. There have been some high spots this season and we are eight points clear of the drop zone. Sure his tactics if you can call them that, are depressing but we 'll just have to hope he can find the right plan with the squad that's available.

Who do we think will come in and do better with no cash for players in the next window ?
Exactly this. We will hopefully avoid relegation for the next few seasons and then consolidate our Championship position with some contracts coming to an end, some sales of players we don't want to lose and Gary Penrice's scouting floodgates opening with a supply of players that can keep us afloat until the long term plans kick in. I didn't want Holloway as manager as I don't think he is an astute tactician/ game changer but he has got the skills as a man manager that we badly needed and the fruits of that are showing in a side that is short in a number of areas but don't quit on the job ahead of them.
Who did you want as manager from those out of work then?

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Re: Ollie

Post by 222gers » Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:42 pm

SheepRanger wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:35 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:32 am
222gers wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 am
Holloway's job is safe. Not least because the club is in no position to fork out for compensation and offer enough dough for a new manager to come in. There have been some high spots this season and we are eight points clear of the drop zone. Sure his tactics if you can call them that, are depressing but we 'll just have to hope he can find the right plan with the squad that's available.

Who do we think will come in and do better with no cash for players in the next window ?
Exactly this. We will hopefully avoid relegation for the next few seasons and then consolidate our Championship position with some contracts coming to an end, some sales of players we don't want to lose and Gary Penrice's scouting floodgates opening with a supply of players that can keep us afloat until the long term plans kick in. I didn't want Holloway as manager as I don't think he is an astute tactician/ game changer but he has got the skills as a man manager that we badly needed and the fruits of that are showing in a side that is short in a number of areas but don't quit on the job ahead of them.
Who did you want as manager from those out of work then?
It was a rhetorical question I think. We are a skint club with an uncertain long term future, little or no money for new players, fickle fans (!) and whathaveyou.

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Re: Ollie

Post by Esox Lucius » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:10 pm

SheepRanger wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:35 pm
Who did you want as manager from those out of work then?
At the time I hought Chris Wilder who was performing miracles at Northampton Town would have been a good manager for us in our current plight, or Mickey Appleton who did a great job at Oxford. Nothing would have been certain with either of those appointments but they would have been my preferences.
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Re: Ollie

Post by Andy_N19 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:40 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:32 am
I didn't want Holloway as manager as I don't think he is an astute tactician/ game changer but he has got the skills as a man manager that we badly needed and the fruits of that are showing in a side that is short in a number of areas but don't quit on the job ahead of them.
But not an excuse to absolve him of criticism.

I can only see a point from the next 2 matches and yes, losing at home to Brentford
will not go down well with the faithful, I can tell you that.
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Re: Ollie

Post by Northolt_Rs » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:48 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:12 am
Or you could go?
Or better still you could do one billy big potatoes...

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Re: Ollie

Post by Crabsandwich » Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:43 pm

Yesterday was pretty miserable - our second-half performance and some shocking officiating didn't help, but the mindless drivel from sections of our support really grated. Some weapon in Ellerslie was screaming at Mackie that he was a dick for some perceived crime (he might have mis-controlled the ball), another rocket-scientist bellowing at Holloway that it was his fault that Smithies side-footed it to a Villa player. I'm all for people letting off steam but do they have to be so bleeding stupid?

I think the two good home wins led some people to think we were world-beaters somehow. This set of players will occasionally gel and get good results against strong opposition, but they're not good enough to do it week-in week-out - that's not anybody's fault, it's just the level they're at.

As far as I'm concerned we're slightly outperforming my pre-season expectations - the idea that Holloway's job is under threat if we lose to Brentford, or anybody, is surely nonsense. Fernandes has already said as much, so anyone hoping for him to go would be better off channelling their efforts into something more positive.

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Re: Ollie

Post by deadendjob » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:06 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:32 am
222gers wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 9:51 am
Holloway's job is safe. Not least because the club is in no position to fork out for compensation and offer enough dough for a new manager to come in. There have been some high spots this season and we are eight points clear of the drop zone. Sure his tactics if you can call them that, are depressing but we 'll just have to hope he can find the right plan with the squad that's available.

Who do we think will come in and do better with no cash for players in the next window ?
Exactly this. We will hopefully avoid relegation for the next few seasons and then consolidate our Championship position with some contracts coming to an end, some sales of players we don't want to lose and Gary Penrice's scouting floodgates opening with a supply of players that can keep us afloat until the long term plans kick in. I didn't want Holloway as manager as I don't think he is an astute tactician/ game changer but he has got the skills as a man manager that we badly needed and the fruits of that are showing in a side that is short in a number of areas but don't quit on the job ahead of them.
Does he? It seems any player he falls out with gets tossed aside. With Sylla (our highest goal scorer), Olly sporadically starts him when most fans can see he's our best goal threat.
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Re: Ollie

Post by UxbridgeR » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:40 pm

Northolt_Rs wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:08 am
Greyhound wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:20 pm
Most of the 'tactically naive' criticism comes from people who are mentally naive.
We were tactically naive against Forest and Villa. No ifs, no buts. They both exploited obvious weaknesses in our set-up which Holloway was unable to recognise. In fact Holloway has ALWAYS been tactically naive, just look at his track record in recent times. He is a really pisspoor manager. We were a complete shambles on the pitch yesterday. Luckily there are three teams worse than us in the league - Burton, Bolton and Sunderland - but we still couldn’t manage to beat any of them though.... If we lose at home to Brentford again then he has to go.
We did however beat two of the top teams in the league in the previous two games. Any reason why you don't include those in your critique ?
Are headphones getting bigger, or are idiots getting smaller ?

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Re: Ollie

Post by Bear-Grills » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 pm

UxbridgeR wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:40 pm
Northolt_Rs wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:08 am
Greyhound wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:20 pm
Most of the 'tactically naive' criticism comes from people who are mentally naive.
We were tactically naive against Forest and Villa. No ifs, no buts. They both exploited obvious weaknesses in our set-up which Holloway was unable to recognise. In fact Holloway has ALWAYS been tactically naive, just look at his track record in recent times. He is a really pisspoor manager. We were a complete shambles on the pitch yesterday. Luckily there are three teams worse than us in the league - Burton, Bolton and Sunderland - but we still couldn’t manage to beat any of them though.... If we lose at home to Brentford again then he has to go.
We did however beat two of the top teams in the league in the previous two games. Any reason why you don't include those in your critique ?
Because, erm.....
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Re: Ollie

Post by ZENITH R » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:26 pm

Let me start by saying I don't think we should get rid of Olly. Hang on to that thought.

I do though think, he needs to take a step back and have a good long hard look at himself.

Last time he was in charge he froze certain players out, played the same 'failing' players time and again, and didn't want to embrace change - it was almost a case of I know I'm right and if I stick with this starting 11 and tactics sooner or later it will come right.

This all seems very familiar doesn't it. Sadly I think he will probably continue to the point where he makes his position untenable.

We have lost 2 games, and I doubt there are too many expecting much in Derby on Tuesday. Defeat will put us halfway into another 6 game losing run. I don't think any manager can survive too many of those.

To my eye the following is pretty obvious:

We have one of the best goal keepers in the division, but he needs an effective defensive screen in front of him. Sadly, injuries have meant at least two players (and possibly three) who would be automatic starters are out injured. So, no criticism of the guys who have stepped up - just an observation. Olly likes to play with wing backs pushing on - fantastic, but it does leave us exposed to a counter attack. A better tactic would be to keep the back four solid in our own half. Instead use wingers on either side of midfield - we have a few (Lua Lua, Wszolek, Shodipo to name but three.) These guys have pace and can cross a ball (I've seen them do it). Get them at the full backs and delivering quality balls into the box. A starting front two of Washington and Sylla with Smith and Mackie as back up from the bench would I think see us score more goals. Washington is much maligned, but he's spending too much time chasing balls out wide, instead of causing problems in the penalty box with his strike partner.

It's actually not rocket science, and since the current tactics/ team selections are not working consistently, I think are definitely worthy of consideration.

A football manager has a squad of approx 30-35 players (Olly has nearer 40) at his disposal. If the team is flying great, stay with the 15 or so who are doing well. If not (and we are not flying or anything like) mix it up and try different things to chase those three points. It makes little sense to not use (or hardly use) anything up to 15 players when still trying to find a consistent winning formula. In fact it shows pretty poor judgement and/ or a lack of man management skills.

Those of us old enough to remember Olly's last stint as manager will be thinking ... I've seen this all before.

I don't want Olly sacked, but I do want him to get his head out of his backside and show us he is a good football manager.
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Re: Ollie

Post by stainrod's elbow » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:14 pm

ZENITH R wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:26 pm
Let me start by saying I don't think we should get rid of Olly. Hang on to that thought.

I do though think, he needs to take a step back and have a good long hard look at himself.

Last time he was in charge he froze certain players out, played the same 'failing' players time and again, and didn't want to embrace change - it was almost a case of I know I'm right and if I stick with this starting 11 and tactics sooner or later it will come right.

This all seems very familiar doesn't it. Sadly I think he will probably continue to the point where he makes his position untenable.

We have lost 2 games, and I doubt there are too many expecting much in Derby on Tuesday. Defeat will put us halfway into another 6 game losing run. I don't think any manager can survive too many of those.

To my eye the following is pretty obvious:

We have one of the best goal keepers in the division, but he needs an effective defensive screen in front of him. Sadly, injuries have meant at least two players (and possibly three) who would be automatic starters are out injured. So, no criticism of the guys who have stepped up - just an observation. Olly likes to play with wing backs pushing on - fantastic, but it does leave us exposed to a counter attack. A better tactic would be to keep the back four solid in our own half. Instead use wingers on either side of midfield - we have a few (Lua Lua, Wszolek, Shodipo to name but three.) These guys have pace and can cross a ball (I've seen them do it). Get them at the full backs and delivering quality balls into the box. A starting front two of Washington and Sylla with Smith and Mackie as back up from the bench would I think see us score more goals. Washington is much maligned, but he's spending too much time chasing balls out wide, instead of causing problems in the penalty box with his strike partner.

It's actually not rocket science, and since the current tactics/ team selections are not working consistently, I think are definitely worthy of consideration.

A football manager has a squad of approx 30-35 players (Olly has nearer 40) at his disposal. If the team is flying great, stay with the 15 or so who are doing well. If not (and we are not flying or anything like) mix it up and try different things to chase those three points. It makes little sense to not use (or hardly use) anything up to 15 players when still trying to find a consistent winning formula. In fact it shows pretty poor judgement and/ or a lack of man management skills.

Those of us old enough to remember Olly's last stint as manager will be thinking ... I've seen this all before.

I don't want Olly sacked, but I do want him to get his head out of his backside and show us he is a good football manager.
Wow, looking into your crystal ball is a barrel of laughs, isn't it? (On the other hand, we break our away duck against Derby, a monkey is off our backs, and we're looking up the table again, sitting just off the playoffs.)

That said, you talk a lot of sense. I agree, and have agreed, with your plea for wingers and a review of our shape, especially away from home. It was all wrong at Forest, and alarming to see how any game plan went to pot when their first couple of goals went in. We were toothless up front, and spineless at the back. Against Villa, when Luongo went off, it seems we conceded a lot of impetus, bite and possession in the middle and Villa just powered/played through us, even though we still could have nicked something on another day.

I don't know why the manager is not using the whole of the squad, which is currently carrying, it seems, JET and Caulker to name but two as non-playing 'supernumeraries' (let's not say mercenaries) in effect, irrespective of Caulker's mental problems. I would like to see the likes of Wheeler, Shodipo and/or Osayi-Samuel given a brief to go out and tear up some trees, so that they're at least properly blooded, and the Irish kid's path to the first team fast-tracked to boot. I also hope Eze will be rocking up in January, all guns blazing post-Wycombe, and given a proper chance - if we can't benefit from his current vein of form, even if at a lower level, that'll be a big disappointment. Our lack of pace, width and proper service to the strikers (especially as Washington and Smith will always need at least four chances to score) is really hobbling our progress right now.

That said, the size and balance of the squad is as much down to Les as Ollie, and he seems, if anything, even more untouchable and immune to criticism at the club than the manager. (I didn't think either of them provided convincing answers at the Fans' Forum when challenged on the issue of our midfield surplus and/or striking deficits, either.)

I suspect it's going to be a right up and down season, and I hope the manager, as you say, puts and keeps his thinking cap on now. I think we'll need to change it for Derby, or we might be in for another hiding, and go there with a plan to win the game . . . if the players are good enough.
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Re: Ollie

Post by Montag » Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:38 pm

A lot of good points Zenith. Especially about wingers. Smith had very little service throughout the match to the point where out of frustration he rushed over to the wing to try win the ball only succeeding in running into Luke F (who had won the ball). Freeman then shouted at him to F*** OFF!! as the ball ran away. There's no point in playing Smith without service. That said - had Smith scored one or both of the 2 good chances he had then we could well have won the match. It's a funny old game.
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Re: Ollie

Post by Northolt_Rs » Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 am

UxbridgeR wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:40 pm
Northolt_Rs wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:08 am
Greyhound wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:20 pm
Most of the 'tactically naive' criticism comes from people who are mentally naive.
We were tactically naive against Forest and Villa. No ifs, no buts. They both exploited obvious weaknesses in our set-up which Holloway was unable to recognise. In fact Holloway has ALWAYS been tactically naive, just look at his track record in recent times. He is a really pisspoor manager. We were a complete shambles on the pitch yesterday. Luckily there are three teams worse than us in the league - Burton, Bolton and Sunderland - but we still couldn’t manage to beat any of them though.... If we lose at home to Brentford again then he has to go.
We did however beat two of the top teams in the league in the previous two games. Any reason why you don't include those in your critique ?
Two great results for sure but I think Holloway’s record is currently 16 wins in 51 games so less than 1 in 3....and 26 defeats :shock: Those stats tell the true story.

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Re: Ollie

Post by T-Block » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:33 pm

Holloway needs a good back-room staff he will listen too.
Lets face it he has some strengths but he does need help

Ask Mr Gerry Francis a s nicely as possible.Ok beg.....

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Re: Ollie

Post by Northolt_Rs » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:47 pm

Northolt_Rs wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:46 am
UxbridgeR wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:40 pm
Northolt_Rs wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:08 am


We were tactically naive against Forest and Villa. No ifs, no buts. They both exploited obvious weaknesses in our set-up which Holloway was unable to recognise. In fact Holloway has ALWAYS been tactically naive, just look at his track record in recent times. He is a really pisspoor manager. We were a complete shambles on the pitch yesterday. Luckily there are three teams worse than us in the league - Burton, Bolton and Sunderland - but we still couldn’t manage to beat any of them though.... If we lose at home to Brentford again then he has to go.
We did however beat two of the top teams in the league in the previous two games. Any reason why you don't include those in your critique ?
Two great results for sure but I think Holloway’s record is currently 16 wins in 52 games so less than 1 in 3....and 27 defeats :shock: Those stats tell the true story.

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