Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by dm » Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm

DAVEf wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 11:27 pm
dm wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 5:14 pm
DAVEf wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 1:30 pm


Statistically (therefore "proven"?) most clubs that have built new stadiums (or majorly developed their existing grounds) in the last twenty years have either increased attendances and/or revenue and/or league status.

So to address (and answer) the question --- "Yes". a new stadium would almost certainly play a part in converting some current non-QPR fans into QPR fans.

Overall it would increase our fan-base and revenue turn-over. There are no guarantees --- but given the numbers, it is a very, very likely outcome.

PS Revenue is every bit as important as attendances because without revenue there would be little chance of success in playing terms and such success will always be the major driver in increasing attendances and (as a side-effect) the over-all fan-base.
You may be right about your statistics, but as you give none how can we know, and how can you suggest that it's proven?

In this Torygraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/0/h ... ince-1988/ of 33 examples given of what happened after teams moved stadium, we find clubs like Chester City and Darlington dissolved and clubs like Millwall, Derby, Bolton and Doncaster now playing in lower leagues to the ones they were in when they moved.

Others are playing in the same league and Oxford are still building theirs after 16 years of playing there.

And then, of course, we have Coventry and the Ricoh Arena...

There are those who have moved stadia and gone on to do well such as Swansea, Stoke and Leicester. However, I am not convinced your insistence that building a new stadium would make an “…increase (of) our fan-base and revenue turn-over … a very, very likely outcome” is sound. But should you have statistics to prove otherwise I would be interested to see them.

So you're saying because you haven't seen them you are refusing to believe they exist? SO much easier for you than actually bothering to check them out for yourself. Or use simple common-snse and onservation?

This is like a scientist (me) who has seen the facts arguing with a religious fanatic (you) who prefers to believe in what he believes in.

That's handy for you --- if blatantly stupid.

And it's never sensible arguing with "stupid" --- it's always just a waste of good time and energy,



Apart from pointing out for others who might comprehend some relevant truths:

Promoted: Newcastle (regularly full 52K+ stadium) and Brighton (new stadium opened 2011-2012).

Play-off final between: Huddersfield (new stadium completed 1998) and Reading (new stadium opened 1998).

I suppose Leicester might also deserve a mention (new stadium opened in 2002 --- though not quite finished I seem to remember)

Also: 1990-91 --- Prior to the clubs mentioned building new stadiums:
QPR --- Prem/1st Division 12th
Brighton --- 2nd Division 6th
Huddersfield --- 3rd Division 11th
Reading --- 3rd Division 15th

Also in 1990 -91, Bolton, Stoke, Swansea and Wigan were all in Division 3 (while Cardiff finished 13th in Diviion 6) before all building new stadiums and rising to attain Premier league status.

Actual "attendances" are somewhat irrelevant considering the gradual change to all (or mostly) seated stadiums and the long trend of rising pices of tickets

What does matter is the revenue any club takes in over a season over and above TV rights, FA prize money and ticket revenue. IE What is spent in the ground at times when football is not being watched (before, during, at HT and after and on non-football match days).
Well, there I was waiting for some killer stats that would prove building a new stadium would make an increase of our fan-base and revenue turn-over a very, very likely outcome. What was provided?

Newcastle (regularly full 52K+ stadium) – that’s a good start.

Brighton (new stadium opened 2011-2012) – hmmm, a new stadium with a capacity over 4,000 smaller than their previous ground.

Huddersfield (new stadium completed 1998) and Reading (new stadium opened 1998) – see UxbridgeR’s comments

Leicester – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as a success story.

Then there are mentions of Bolton and Wigan - both playing in a lower league to the ones they were in when they moved, Cardiff – playing in the same league as when new stadium built, and Stoke, and Swansea – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as being success stories.

The thing is, there are almost no stats or proof supporting the assertion. And, if that’s scientific hysterical

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by Wegerle » Thu May 18, 2017 6:18 pm

I think you'll lose some fans who all of sudden find themselves having to travel longer and you will win some new fans who live near the new stadium. Better accessibility and more comfortable features might attract some more fans, disappearance of nostalgia and too many changes will lose you a few.

A new stadium will set you up nicely IF and WHEN you become succesful on the field. I just can't see us averaging 25-30.000 every 2 weeks with the football we play now and the current position we are in. We are not a sleeping giant, we are not exclusive in a big area. We are one of many smallish clubs in London and I think that only succes on the field will see us filling any kind of stadium.

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by Andy_N19 » Thu May 18, 2017 9:34 pm

dm wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm
Then there are mentions of Bolton and Wigan - both playing in a lower league to the ones they were in when they moved, Cardiff – playing in the same league as when new stadium built, and Stoke, and Swansea – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as being success stories.

The thing is, there are almost no stats or proof supporting the assertion. And, if that’s scientific hysterical
Surprised dm that you'd rail against moving from HQ.
We need a new stadium, end of, the only question is how large or small it should be.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by deadendjob » Thu May 18, 2017 10:27 pm

Andy_N19 wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:34 pm
dm wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm
Then there are mentions of Bolton and Wigan - both playing in a lower league to the ones they were in when they moved, Cardiff – playing in the same league as when new stadium built, and Stoke, and Swansea – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as being success stories.

The thing is, there are almost no stats or proof supporting the assertion. And, if that’s scientific hysterical
Surprised dm that you'd rail against moving from HQ.
We need a new stadium, end of, the only question is how large or small it should be.
I don't think he's railing against it, more asking/stating that just because we have a stadium with more capacity that we'll have more people turning up.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by stainrod's elbow » Thu May 18, 2017 11:47 pm

We are indeed not so much a sleeping giant as a woken midget. Our average crowd in our vintage 1975-76 season was less than 24,000. When we finished 5th (top London club) in 1992-93 in the first Premier League season, it was barely 15,000. In glamour/popular terms, we are now miles behind Fulham, and probably on a par with Brentford, stick in our blue and white craw thought it may. The era of Stan, Gerry and co. feels like it played out in another dimension.

In my view, we should rip up South Africa Road, the embarrassing School End and potentially the Paddock while we're there and insert pioneering 'safe standing' to significantly increase capacity (roughly two standing fans to every seat) - which could also help reduce - or at least stabilise - ticket prices, bring back some much needed atmosphere, and, I would think, give us a minimum capacity of around 25,000. Is it also impossible economically and engineering-wise for us to extend downwards? I don't really want us to leave LR unless absolutely necessary.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by DAVEf » Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 am

dm wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm
DAVEf wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 11:27 pm
dm wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 5:14 pm


You may be right about your statistics, but as you give none how can we know, and how can you suggest that it's proven?

In this Torygraph article: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/0/h ... ince-1988/ of 33 examples given of what happened after teams moved stadium, we find clubs like Chester City and Darlington dissolved and clubs like Millwall, Derby, Bolton and Doncaster now playing in lower leagues to the ones they were in when they moved.

Others are playing in the same league and Oxford are still building theirs after 16 years of playing there.

And then, of course, we have Coventry and the Ricoh Arena...

There are those who have moved stadia and gone on to do well such as Swansea, Stoke and Leicester. However, I am not convinced your insistence that building a new stadium would make an “…increase (of) our fan-base and revenue turn-over … a very, very likely outcome” is sound. But should you have statistics to prove otherwise I would be interested to see them.

So you're saying because you haven't seen them you are refusing to believe they exist? SO much easier for you than actually bothering to check them out for yourself. Or use simple common-snse and onservation?

This is like a scientist (me) who has seen the facts arguing with a religious fanatic (you) who prefers to believe in what he believes in.

That's handy for you --- if blatantly stupid.

And it's never sensible arguing with "stupid" --- it's always just a waste of good time and energy,



Apart from pointing out for others who might comprehend some relevant truths:

Promoted: Newcastle (regularly full 52K+ stadium) and Brighton (new stadium opened 2011-2012).

Play-off final between: Huddersfield (new stadium completed 1998) and Reading (new stadium opened 1998).

I suppose Leicester might also deserve a mention (new stadium opened in 2002 --- though not quite finished I seem to remember)

Also: 1990-91 --- Prior to the clubs mentioned building new stadiums:
QPR --- Prem/1st Division 12th
Brighton --- 2nd Division 6th
Huddersfield --- 3rd Division 11th
Reading --- 3rd Division 15th

Also in 1990 -91, Bolton, Stoke, Swansea and Wigan were all in Division 3 (while Cardiff finished 13th in Diviion 6) before all building new stadiums and rising to attain Premier league status.

Actual "attendances" are somewhat irrelevant considering the gradual change to all (or mostly) seated stadiums and the long trend of rising pices of tickets

What does matter is the revenue any club takes in over a season over and above TV rights, FA prize money and ticket revenue. IE What is spent in the ground at times when football is not being watched (before, during, at HT and after and on non-football match days).
Well, there I was waiting for some killer stats that would prove building a new stadium would make an increase of our fan-base and revenue turn-over a very, very likely outcome. What was provided?

Newcastle (regularly full 52K+ stadium) – that’s a good start.

Brighton (new stadium opened 2011-2012) – hmmm, a new stadium with a capacity over 4,000 smaller than their previous ground.

Huddersfield (new stadium completed 1998) and Reading (new stadium opened 1998) – see UxbridgeR’s comments

Leicester – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as a success story.

Then there are mentions of Bolton and Wigan - both playing in a lower league to the ones they were in when they moved, Cardiff – playing in the same league as when new stadium built, and Stoke, and Swansea – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as being success stories.

The thing is, there are almost no stats or proof supporting the assertion. And, if that’s scientific hysterical
Wigan have punched above their weight for many years because of the reveune their stadium provides) while Bolton have been promoted straight back into the Championship (something we only just managed after three years in League One) and Cardiff are ticking along nicely so won't have be "cutting their cloth " as we have been told QPR have to do ---but that's by-the-by ---

You ignored one fact, all the new stadiums are multi-use and have facilities that generate income all year round (and on many, many more days and in far greater amounts than a place like LR ever has or ever could) and that gives them financial security and a base on which to build (as opposed to just survive which is what we seem to be being offered at the moment).
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by dm » Fri May 19, 2017 5:52 am

deadendjob wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 10:27 pm
Andy_N19 wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 9:34 pm
dm wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 4:36 pm
Then there are mentions of Bolton and Wigan - both playing in a lower league to the ones they were in when they moved, Cardiff – playing in the same league as when new stadium built, and Stoke, and Swansea – I had already mentioned them in my previous post as being success stories.

The thing is, there are almost no stats or proof supporting the assertion. And, if that’s scientific hysterical
Surprised dm that you'd rail against moving from HQ.
We need a new stadium, end of, the only question is how large or small it should be.
I don't think he's railing against it, more asking/stating that just because we have a stadium with more capacity that we'll have more people turning up.
I'm not against a new stadium. Taking all thing taken into account I think most recognise the need. Even with associated risks it's clear QPR have to do something about their stadium.

As dej said, I'm have serious doubts the stadium will, in itself, attract not only bigger crowds but more QPR fans. 'Build it and they will come' is a phrase from a film not a realistic strategy.

It seems the club understands it must work hard to attract new supporters but as others have said, success on the pitch will be the main attraction.

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by Esox Lucius » Fri May 19, 2017 6:23 am

If the new stadium is in use 365 days a year then it doesn't matter if the stadium isn't filled on match days, it is the revenue stream from the stadium that is the key to pushing on.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by LanCat » Fri May 19, 2017 6:25 am

DAVEf wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 am


Wigan have punched above their weight for many years because of the reveune their stadium provides) while Bolton have been promoted straight back into the Championship (something we only just managed after three years in League One) and Cardiff are ticking along nicely so won't have be "cutting their cloth " as we have been told QPR have to do ---but that's by-the-by ---

You ignored one fact, all the new stadiums are multi-use and have facilities that generate income all year round (and on many, many more days and in far greater amounts than a place like LR ever has or ever could) and that gives them financial security and a base on which to build (as opposed to just survive which is what we seem to be being offered at the moment).
This, 30,000 times this.

QPR would be the focal point of the stadium with around 25 events a year. Getting income from events on the remaining 340 days is the main point of a new stadium. Conferences, meetings, exhibitions, weddings, concerts, whatever will bring in revenue that LR does not and could not give today. The size reflects cost of build and the calculation of income against investment with a nod to not ruining atmosphere by us having a half empty stadium on match days is what makes or breaks the deal. I'd expect the assumption is that a new stadium with a more comfortable, better food/drink experience will bring in more fans but they'd have to be particularly daft to expect a 10k increase and might be thinking of 10% as a more realistic target.

We must have a new facility to help balance the books. If it was just football we'd stay where we were but if we don't take the opportunity to build now then the options will become even more limited and will further and further from W12.

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by kernowhoop » Fri May 19, 2017 6:26 am

stainrod's elbow wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 11:47 pm
We are indeed not so much a sleeping giant as a woken midget. Our average crowd in our vintage 1975-76 season was less than 24,000. When we finished 5th (top London club) in 1992-93 in the first Premier League season, it was barely 15,000. In glamour/popular terms, we are now miles behind Fulham, and probably on a par with Brentford, stick in our blue and white craw thought it may. The era of Stan, Gerry and co. feels like it played out in another dimension.

In my view, we should rip up South Africa Road, the embarrassing School End and potentially the Paddock while we're there and insert pioneering 'safe standing' to significantly increase capacity (roughly two standing fans to every seat) - which could also help reduce - or at least stabilise - ticket prices, bring back some much needed atmosphere, and, I would think, give us a minimum capacity of around 25,000. Is it also impossible economically and engineering-wise for us to extend downwards? I don't really want us to leave LR unless absolutely necessary.
Seating-wise, most of the stadium is 'embarrassing'. I have often taken friends to QPR and I find myself explaining, in advance, that it is uncomfortable. Front row seats are just about OK (as far as leg room is concerned), but, even when they are available they often come with a 'restricted view'. I would like to think that there is a magic answer that would allow us to remain at Loftus Road and introducing some standing room is an attractive idea, whether we leave or stay. But, the club knows that there is not. Investment is required and just as in any other business, it is fraught with risk. The club knows that, too, but, in time, it will find the answer - the sooner the better.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by UxbridgeR » Fri May 19, 2017 9:11 am

DAVEf wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 am

Wigan have punched above their weight for many years because of the reveune their stadium provides) while Bolton have been promoted straight back into the Championship (something we only just managed after three years in League One) and Cardiff are ticking along nicely so won't have be "cutting their cloth " as we have been told QPR have to do ---but that's by-the-by ---

You ignored one fact, all the new stadiums are multi-use and have facilities that generate income all year round (and on many, many more days and in far greater amounts than a place like LR ever has or ever could) and that gives them financial security and a base on which to build (as opposed to just survive which is what we seem to be being offered at the moment).
I would suggest that Wigan and Bolton punching above their weight had more to do with very generous financial backing from wealthy benefactors. Indeed Bolton were on the verge of administration more than once last season after Eddie Davies stopped funding them. Cardiff have been through exactly the same cost-cutting process as we have, they're just a year ahead of us, having been relegated in 2013-14. They're also £100M+ in debt, so it's debatable how nicely they're ticking along.

Your point about all year round revenue generation is perfectly correct, but it certainly doesn't guarantee financial security.
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by DAVEf » Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm

UxbridgeR wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 9:11 am
DAVEf wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 2:11 am

Wigan have punched above their weight for many years because of the reveune their stadium provides) while Bolton have been promoted straight back into the Championship (something we only just managed after three years in League One) and Cardiff are ticking along nicely so won't have be "cutting their cloth " as we have been told QPR have to do ---but that's by-the-by ---

You ignored one fact, all the new stadiums are multi-use and have facilities that generate income all year round (and on many, many more days and in far greater amounts than a place like LR ever has or ever could) and that gives them financial security and a base on which to build (as opposed to just survive which is what we seem to be being offered at the moment).
I would suggest that Wigan and Bolton punching above their weight had more to do with very generous financial backing from wealthy benefactors. Indeed Bolton were on the verge of administration more than once last season after Eddie Davies stopped funding them. Cardiff have been through exactly the same cost-cutting process as we have, they're just a year ahead of us, having been relegated in 2013-14. They're also £100M+ in debt, so it's debatable how nicely they're ticking along.

Your point about all year round revenue generation is perfectly correct, but it certainly doesn't guarantee financial security.
There are no guarantees are there? Especially given that with more income comes more demand from fans for success. But, given some fiscal common-sense, it's surely always likely to give some kind of buffer against really major problems.

The constant bringing up of "but will it increase attendances?" though, is nonsense. It's income that would be increased (and "potential" income --- which is what banks like) and that is what is vital (although attendances would be increased during successful times --- and though fans converted to QPRism in those times might drift away during less successful times they would stay "ours" forever ready to come back when good times return).
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by dm » Fri May 19, 2017 6:47 pm

DAVEf wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm
The constant bringing up of "but will it increase attendances?" though, is nonsense.
"So to address (and answer) the question --- "Yes". a new stadium would almost certainly play a part in converting some current non-QPR fans into QPR fans. Overall it would increase our fan-base and revenue turn-over. There are no guarantees --- but given the numbers, it is a very, very likely outcome." © DAVEf 18.05.17

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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by DAVEf » Sat May 20, 2017 1:21 pm

dm wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 6:47 pm
DAVEf wrote:
Fri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm
The constant bringing up of "but will it increase attendances?" though, is nonsense.
"So to address (and answer) the question --- "Yes". a new stadium would almost certainly play a part in converting some current non-QPR fans into QPR fans. Overall it would increase our fan-base and revenue turn-over. There are no guarantees --- but given the numbers, it is a very, very likely outcome." © DAVEf 18.05.17
I addressed (and answered) the question. And "constant" on its own would be nonsense without some kind of qualification. So I qualified it.

Simple (for the intellectually unchallenged).
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Re: Updates on new stadium, training ground and more

Post by Damien » Sat May 20, 2017 6:18 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu May 18, 2017 12:12 pm
Damien wrote:
Wed May 17, 2017 9:27 pm
Don't dish it out to Chelshit fans Esox if you don't expect some back. You can be very disrespectful to them at times on here. Just disagree and leave out the personal stuff please. Peace, Love and all that... even Tories :wink:
I don't understand why he is allowed to post on a QPR supporters forum.
Smart arse :)

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