The truth at last

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Lee Gib
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Re: The truth at last

Post by Lee Gib » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:00 pm

Andy_N19 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:30 pm
Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 am
........and The EU is a bastion of democracy.
Many would argue that democracy is being undermined in Britain with such a socially exclusive/divisive
government headed by numerous Old Etonians, Oxbridge luvvies and then there's Rees-Mogg....
Possibly true. The only difference being the electorate can get rid of the tories...

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:41 pm

Andy_N19 wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 2:30 pm
Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 am
........and The EU is a bastion of democracy.
Many would argue that democracy is being undermined in Britain with such a socially exclusive/divisive
government headed by numerous Old Etonians, Oxbridge luvvies and then there's Rees-Mogg....
Rees-Mogg whatever you think of him was elected under our system. If an elected representative being in the governement is undemocratic then I have misunderstood the word.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:47 pm

Giorgio wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 1:00 pm
Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 am
........and The EU is a bastion of democracy.
..well, IMO it is....and as your sentence sounds a little bit ironic......would you mind providing some practical example supporting such statement...?
Can you tell when and where the EU has come to limit your freedom or interfering with your rights as a citizen...?

Just curiosity, cos if I think of my own life I cannot find anything like that.....I am Italian....I married a foreigner, I moved around Europe,
going to live and work in another European country, finding the same rights that I had in my country of origin....I can work, move doing everything I like, so I cannot see this state of Fascist Laws that somebody is trying to picture out of the EU... :roll: :roll:
When was the last time we were allowed to vote on anything Brussels wanted to introduce. Your point about being able to move around Europe to live and work with the same rights as your home country is well made it's almost as if the EU was a sovereign state.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Giorgio » Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:58 pm

QPR_John wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:47 pm
When was the last time we were allowed to vote on anything Brussels wanted to introduce.
..so you are telling that every time your Parliament is introducing a new legislation you are used to be called to vote....

and by the way, If I am not wrong, I think that only few weeks ago something like European election took place to make up the new European Parliament...

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:32 pm

Giorgio wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:58 pm
QPR_John wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:47 pm
When was the last time we were allowed to vote on anything Brussels wanted to introduce.
..so you are telling that every time your Parliament is introducing a new legislation you are used to be called to vote....

and by the way, If I am not wrong, I think that only few weeks ago something like European election took place to make up the new European Parliament...
If my Parliament passes new legislation I can vote the government out and any new government can overturn said legislation. Whenever has the EU Parliament overturned anything from Brussels. I think we can all agree whatever our views of the EU how toothless the Parliament is in reality.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Nw6ranger » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:26 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:39 am
Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 am
........and The EU is a bastion of democracy.
It's not a case of good vs evil. or any other black & white scenario you care to choose, the EU, IMO, has many shortcomings and some things that are worse than the UK version but overall I would rather be in the EU than out of it.
With a subject relevant to many on this board; take a look at the state pensions of the major players in the EU. Take a look at the healthcare in these countries too, all in far better shape than they are in the UK. The people of Europe appear to value their citizens a lot more than our ruling classes value us.
Healthcare... I think it's just a culture thing in some parts of europe where the hospitals etc treat you as family
and not like a piece of meat or a stastistic if you dont have the money. My Dad (rip) always said to me when the time comes don't let them take him. So when the health authorities came knocking and said it's time to go into a home, me and my brother bundled him on a plane back to Spain where he was born back in the 30s.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Rbee » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:37 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:24 pm
Pre advisory referendum £1 = $1.56
Today £1 = $1.16
My weekly shop has increased around 20% in the same period for more or less the same stuff every week.
Thanks Leave voters... for nothing.
Sterling crashed the day after the result of the referendum was announced even though everybody knew that nothing was going to change for at least two years. You would expect a small correction but not a crash so in my opinion a lot of this is down to those city boys coining it in. They should receive a generous bonus too.

'Stuff' has always increased above the rate of inflation.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Rbee » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:47 pm

Worth a watch if you haven't already done so.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63IcW4eo4uM&t=89s[/youtube]

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Montag » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:41 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:19 pm
QPR_John wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:14 pm
Andy_N19 wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:33 am


In what way were the 1970's "better"?
At the end of the day we did not vote for the EU in 1975. No government since has had a mandate to intergrate this country into the political union that the EU is now. Now I am not arguing one way or the other simply saying the result of the referendum in 2016 was to get out of an organisation we never voted to join. The point is we were lied to in 1975 as I cannot believe the plans for a political union were not at an advanced stage then, they had to be.
So, your opinion then, not fact.
No not John's opinion. FACT. If you want to find out, watch this debate between Michael Foot and Heath from 1975. Michael confronts Heath with details about political union et al contained in the Treaty of Rome. Heath just poo-pooed it. Micheal, Benn, Peter Shore et al have all been proved right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuZrzwm6CJs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuZrzwm6CJs

And for good measure, have a look at this from the end of Peter Shore's speech at the OxU in '75. If more people had seen this we would have rejected it so do please stop talking down to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuZrzwm6CJs
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Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:19 pm

Refrain from telling me what to do. The shambolic attempts so far at leaving the EU are already a disaster; what makes you think things will get any better?
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:09 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:19 pm
Refrain from telling me what to do. The shambolic attempts so far at leaving the EU are already a disaster; what makes you think things will get any better?
The shambolic attempts at leaving the EU is due to the simple fact those negotiating on both sides up to now do not want us to leave. It could be said that the remainers have so far played a blinder.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Rbee » Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:55 pm

We were never going to receive a decent deal with the likes of Guy Verhofstadt and Michel Barnier. all too personal.

As I have always said Brexit negotiations required some independent input from the US, Africa, Asia, anyone with a neutral outlook.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Montag » Mon Aug 05, 2019 10:25 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 8:19 pm
Refrain from telling me what to do. The shambolic attempts so far at leaving the EU are already a disaster; what makes you think things will get any better?
Where did I say things would get better? What do you consider better? And If you're going to talk down to people then you could at least get your facts right. (A suggestion not a command. I can't tell anyone what to do).
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Paul Fitz » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:57 pm

Giorgio
I could give you many examples. A local one to you and I would be an essay written (pretty sure it’s online) by Dave Gibney, communications officer for Mandate (Irish trade union for retail workers) and his views on the EU.

Doesn’t matter what I present to you (and vice versa) we both won’t change our minds. If Twitter is anything to go by, this topic usually descends into an absolute slagging match. Don’t want that.
Alone again in the lap of luxury

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Giorgio » Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:27 am

Paul Fitz wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:57 pm
Giorgio
I could give you many examples. A local one to you and I would be an essay written (pretty sure it’s online) by Dave Gibney, communications officer for Mandate (Irish trade union for retail workers) and his views on the EU.

Doesn’t matter what I present to you (and vice versa) we both won’t change our minds. If Twitter is anything to go by, this topic usually descends into an absolute slagging match. Don’t want that.
..really not a prob...in my opinion you are making a great mistake, mainly from a business and economic point of view, but at the end of the day I don't really care cos it is not affecting me directly. Right now the only result that I got is change my € into £ (cash needed for traveling to UK) to an outstanding rate, hoping that soon it will be even better getting to € 1 = £ 1

On the other side, you are happy with that, so nothing to fight about that...

but may be one day you will make a walk to Canossa (historic reference....) :wink:

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