The truth at last

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QPR_John
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The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:01 pm

Never been a great fan of Caroline Lucas and Jo Swinson but I give them both credit for their honestly. Both have admitted even if a second referendum results in a leave vote they will not accept it. I imagine that applies to all who want a second referendum but have not the guts to admit it.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR-NI » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:23 am

If you don't accept one referendum, why would you accept another that went against you?

Hopefully it gets sorted one way or another now.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 am

QPR-NI wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:23 am
If you don't accept one referendum, why would you accept another that went against you?

Hopefully it gets sorted one way or another now.
The first one, which was only an advisory referendum, was campaigned on a tissue of lies by both sides, false and broken promises which coupled with Electoral Law breaches should be more than enough reason to re-run the referendum, this time with a lot more honesty and adherence to the law of the land.
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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:14 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 am
QPR-NI wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:23 am
If you don't accept one referendum, why would you accept another that went against you?

Hopefully it gets sorted one way or another now.
The first one, which was only an advisory referendum, was campaigned on a tissue of lies by both sides, false and broken promises which coupled with Electoral Law breaches should be more than enough reason to re-run the referendum, this time with a lot more honesty and adherence to the law of the land.
My point is not about the validity or otherwise of the first referendum or even questioning whether there should be a second referendum. While accepting anybody has a right to ask for a second referendum I cannot see the logic in an MP asking for one and declaring before its even been legislated for that they will not accept the result if it goes against them

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:36 pm

QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:14 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 am
QPR-NI wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:23 am
If you don't accept one referendum, why would you accept another that went against you?

Hopefully it gets sorted one way or another now.
The first one, which was only an advisory referendum, was campaigned on a tissue of lies by both sides, false and broken promises which coupled with Electoral Law breaches should be more than enough reason to re-run the referendum, this time with a lot more honesty and adherence to the law of the land.
My point is not about the validity or otherwise of the first referendum or even questioning whether there should be a second referendum. While accepting anybody has a right to ask for a second referendum I cannot see the logic in an MP asking for one and declaring before its even been legislated for that they will not accept the result if it goes against them
The original petition to run a second referendum before the results were fully known was instigated by a Brexiteer who thought they were going to lose.
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Re: The truth at last

Post by Rbee » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:09 pm

Should there be a second referendum then there would also have to be a third.

Best of three rules would apply.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:32 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:36 pm
QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:14 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:54 am


The first one, which was only an advisory referendum, was campaigned on a tissue of lies by both sides, false and broken promises which coupled with Electoral Law breaches should be more than enough reason to re-run the referendum, this time with a lot more honesty and adherence to the law of the land.
My point is not about the validity or otherwise of the first referendum or even questioning whether there should be a second referendum. While accepting anybody has a right to ask for a second referendum I cannot see the logic in an MP asking for one and declaring before its even been legislated for that they will not accept the result if it goes against them
The original petition to run a second referendum before the results were fully known was instigated by a Brexiteer who thought they were going to lose.
Do you not understand my point or are you deliberately trying to answer a different question. Asking for a second referendum before the first is run seems odd but there is a perverse logic to it. Jo Swinson did not want the first referendum which is a perfect respectable point of view but why you would want a second referendum at all if you state you will not change your views whatever the result seems odd. I don't care whether it is a remainer or a brexiteer or the man on the moon it seems illogical to me. Why put the country through the expense and upheaval of a referendum you have no intention of respecting unless you get the result you want.

I'll try and answer my own question she like many asking for a second referendum are gambling it will result in staying which let's them off the hook of openly revoking article 50 which they are wary of doing for obvious reasons

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Re: The truth at last

Post by UxbridgeR » Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:51 pm

QPR_John wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:01 pm
Never been a great fan of Caroline Lucas and Jo Swinson but I give them both credit for their honestly. Both have admitted even if a second referendum results in a leave vote they will not accept it. I imagine that applies to all who want a second referendum but have not the guts to admit it.
It's quite a stretch to suggest that because two individuals expressed that view, the millions of others who want a second referendum must all think the same way.
Are headphones getting bigger, or are idiots getting smaller ?

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm

QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:32 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:36 pm
QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:14 pm


My point is not about the validity or otherwise of the first referendum or even questioning whether there should be a second referendum. While accepting anybody has a right to ask for a second referendum I cannot see the logic in an MP asking for one and declaring before its even been legislated for that they will not accept the result if it goes against them
The original petition to run a second referendum before the results were fully known was instigated by a Brexiteer who thought they were going to lose.
Do you not understand my point or are you deliberately trying to answer a different question. Asking for a second referendum before the first is run seems odd but there is a perverse logic to it. Jo Swinson did not want the first referendum which is a perfect respectable point of view but why you would want a second referendum at all if you state you will not change your views whatever the result seems odd. I don't care whether it is a remainer or a brexiteer or the man on the moon it seems illogical to me. Why put the country through the expense and upheaval of a referendum you have no intention of respecting unless you get the result you want.

I'll try and answer my own question she like many asking for a second referendum are gambling it will result in staying which let's them off the hook of openly revoking article 50 which they are wary of doing for obvious reasons
It's not wanting a second referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. It is having a binding referendum, not an advisory one, where all the facts are presented before the vote and real, binding manifestos. There was nothing given out by either side which bore any resemblance to the truth during campaigning yet people now seem to have completely forgotten about it, or are deliberately ignoring it.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:47 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:10 pm
QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:32 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 1:36 pm

The original petition to run a second referendum before the results were fully known was instigated by a Brexiteer who thought they were going to lose.
Do you not understand my point or are you deliberately trying to answer a different question. Asking for a second referendum before the first is run seems odd but there is a perverse logic to it. Jo Swinson did not want the first referendum which is a perfect respectable point of view but why you would want a second referendum at all if you state you will not change your views whatever the result seems odd. I don't care whether it is a remainer or a brexiteer or the man on the moon it seems illogical to me. Why put the country through the expense and upheaval of a referendum you have no intention of respecting unless you get the result you want.

I'll try and answer my own question she like many asking for a second referendum are gambling it will result in staying which let's them off the hook of openly revoking article 50 which they are wary of doing for obvious reasons
It's not wanting a second referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. It is having a binding referendum, not an advisory one, where all the facts are presented before the vote and real, binding manifestos. There was nothing given out by either side which bore any resemblance to the truth during campaigning yet people now seem to have completely forgotten about it, or are deliberately ignoring it.
"It's not wanting a second referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. It is having a binding referendum, not an advisory one, where all the facts are presented before the vote and real, binding manifestos."

I really do understand that point of view but again I repeat that is not my point. It is not the request for a referendum whether it be the first, second, third that I am puzzled by.

But if I can add to your eloquent words.........

It's not wanting a second referendum because you didn't like the result of the first one. It is having a binding referendum, not an advisory one, where all the facts are presented before the vote and real, binding manifestos BUT DECLARING BEFORE HAND YOU WILL NOT ACCEPT THE RESULT.

What is the point of somebody with that attitude asking for a second referendum

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:57 pm

None whatsoever
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Re: The truth at last

Post by QPR_John » Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:10 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:57 pm
None whatsoever
Then we agree

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Fri Jul 26, 2019 6:22 am

QPR_John wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:10 pm
Esox Lucius wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:57 pm
None whatsoever
Then we agree
I was illustrating those people who will accept a fairly run campaign.
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Re: The truth at last

Post by Montag » Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:22 pm

Perhaps if we'd been told the truth in 1975 then we wouldn't be in this situation.
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

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Re: The truth at last

Post by Esox Lucius » Mon Jul 29, 2019 8:09 pm

Montag wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 5:22 pm
Perhaps if we'd been told the truth in 1975 then we wouldn't be in this situation.
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