New Referendum

This is a general message forum for all football and other general posts. Images, banter and topic wandering allowed. ALL TICKET RELATED POSTS IN DEDICATED THREAD IN HERE ONLY. All ticket related posts elsewhere will be deleted.

Moderators: Virginia_R, nige101uk, willesdenr, qprdotorgadmin, ZENITH R

User avatar
DroopStreetOldBoys
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DroopStreetOldBoys » Tue Dec 13, 2016 4:20 pm

QPR_John wrote:
DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
SheepRanger wrote:
With the electorate only being deemed suitably educated to make decisions when the right result is obtained?
It really wouldn't. That would lead to majority rule, which isn't the same as democracy. There has to be a way to protect the minority from tyranny by the majority, or when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). Even countries that use referenda more frequently tend to set a percentage to be achieved. Participation in whatever system is probably as big of an issue, some of the referenda in Switzerland have had less than 30% turnout others over 49%. In the UK the general election elected a government with a 66% turnout and brexit had a turnout of 84.6%, brexit being the highest ever recorded turnout in th UK, but that's unlikely to ever be matched. How many people would turn out to vote on the Bat Habitats Regulation Bill, for example?
"when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). "

I see the old idea of people counting those that did not vote as supporters of their side is alive and well
Nothing to do with how I voted, you're assuming I voted in. But I see the old idea of completely missing the point, is still alive and well, because that is a simple fact.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: New Referendum

Post by QPR_John » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:40 pm

DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
QPR_John wrote:
DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
It really wouldn't. That would lead to majority rule, which isn't the same as democracy. There has to be a way to protect the minority from tyranny by the majority, or when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). Even countries that use referenda more frequently tend to set a percentage to be achieved. Participation in whatever system is probably as big of an issue, some of the referenda in Switzerland have had less than 30% turnout others over 49%. In the UK the general election elected a government with a 66% turnout and brexit had a turnout of 84.6%, brexit being the highest ever recorded turnout in th UK, but that's unlikely to ever be matched. How many people would turn out to vote on the Bat Habitats Regulation Bill, for example?
"when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). "

I see the old idea of people counting those that did not vote as supporters of their side is alive and well
Nothing to do with how I voted, you're assuming I voted in. But I see the old idea of completely missing the point, is still alive and well, because that is a simple fact.
As is when a union votes for strike action. Only saying what's good for the goose.......

User avatar
Montag
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by Montag » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:11 pm

It is the majority that need protecting from the minority elite that is the real issue. It always has been in England since 1066. 1381 and all that.
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7035
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:15 am

We need the minority so those at the upper levels of the majority can work hard to afford ones insurance premiums on ones art collection.

User avatar
222gers
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3749
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:55 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: New Referendum

Post by 222gers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:41 am

The old failing of democracy - the people at the top take enough people in the middle with them to form a majority against those at the bottom.
The exception that proves the rule was the 1945 election when sufficient people in the middle went with people at the bottom to gain a majority against the people at the top.

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7035
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Wed Dec 14, 2016 11:50 am

222gers wrote:The old failing of democracy - the people at the top take enough people in the middle with them to form a majority against those at the bottom.
The exception that proves the rule was the 1945 election when sufficient people in the middle went with people at the bottom to gain a majority against the people at the top.
And every subsequent Labour Govt after 1945?

User avatar
DroopStreetOldBoys
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DroopStreetOldBoys » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:16 pm

QPR_John wrote:
DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
QPR_John wrote:
"when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). "

I see the old idea of people counting those that did not vote as supporters of their side is alive and well
Nothing to do with how I voted, you're assuming I voted in. But I see the old idea of completely missing the point, is still alive and well, because that is a simple fact.
As is when a union votes for strike action. Only saying what's good for the goose.......
Yeah, that's the same. Apart from the fact that those who didn't vote for a strike don't go on strike, they get the benefits if it's successful in its aims, and don't suffer any hardship, then that's exactly the same.

User avatar
DAVEf
dot.org vip
dot.org vip
Posts: 27507
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 11:38 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DAVEf » Wed Dec 14, 2016 12:58 pm

222gers wrote:The old failing of democracy - the people at the top take enough people in the middle with them to form a majority against those at the bottom.
The exception that proves the rule was the 1945 election when sufficient people in the middle went with people at the bottom to gain a majority against the people at the top.
So we're a bit along the road now. From what you are seeing, who do you think is going to benefit from whatever version of Brexit we end up with? And who will suffer most?
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind".

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: New Referendum

Post by QPR_John » Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:05 pm

DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
QPR_John wrote:
DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
Nothing to do with how I voted, you're assuming I voted in. But I see the old idea of completely missing the point, is still alive and well, because that is a simple fact.
As is when a union votes for strike action. Only saying what's good for the goose.......
Yeah, that's the same. Apart from the fact that those who didn't vote for a strike don't go on strike, they get the benefits if it's successful in its aims, and don't suffer any hardship, then that's exactly the same.
You have the better of me on this. Are you saying when a union declares a strike only those that voted for it actually strike.

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 19688
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: New Referendum

Post by Esox Lucius » Wed Dec 14, 2016 2:24 pm

QPR_John wrote: You have the better of me on this. Are you saying when a union declares a strike only those that voted for it actually strike.
Yes, any others, who still go into work, are scabs.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

User avatar
222gers
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 3749
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 3:55 pm
Location: LONDON

Re: New Referendum

Post by 222gers » Wed Dec 14, 2016 3:26 pm

DAVEf wrote:
222gers wrote:The old failing of democracy - the people at the top take enough people in the middle with them to form a majority against those at the bottom.
The exception that proves the rule was the 1945 election when sufficient people in the middle went with people at the bottom to gain a majority against the people at the top.
So we're a bit along the road now. From what you are seeing, who do you think is going to benefit from whatever version of Brexit we end up with? And who will suffer most?
The sort of democratic choice we see in a referendum is of course a single issue affair whereas in an election we are looking at who best looks after our and our country's interest over a possible 5 years. So, supporters of various political parties will have voted with one accord either for or against Brexit. Who ulimately benefits from Brexit, no one can, with any certaincy, safely say at this moment in time.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: New Referendum

Post by QPR_John » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:37 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
QPR_John wrote: You have the better of me on this. Are you saying when a union declares a strike only those that voted for it actually strike.
Yes, any others, who still go into work, are scabs.
So as far as unions are concerned the winning side in a ballot must be obeyed 100 percent even if they do not account for the majority but such a rule does not always apply when it suites

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 19688
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: New Referendum

Post by Esox Lucius » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:41 pm

QPR_John wrote:
Esox Lucius wrote:
QPR_John wrote: You have the better of me on this. Are you saying when a union declares a strike only those that voted for it actually strike.
Yes, any others, who still go into work, are scabs.
So as far as unions are concerned the winning side in a ballot must be obeyed 100 percent even if they do not account for the majority but such a rule does not always apply when it suites
No, I don't think you understood my reply did you?
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: New Referendum

Post by QPR_John » Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:08 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
QPR_John wrote:
Esox Lucius wrote: Yes, any others, who still go into work, are scabs.
So as far as unions are concerned the winning side in a ballot must be obeyed 100 percent even if they do not account for the majority but such a rule does not always apply when it suites
No, I don't think you understood my reply did you?
I think it best if we discontinue this tangent

User avatar
DroopStreetOldBoys
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DroopStreetOldBoys » Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:27 am

QPR_John wrote:
Esox Lucius wrote:
QPR_John wrote:
So as far as unions are concerned the winning side in a ballot must be obeyed 100 percent even if they do not account for the majority but such a rule does not always apply when it suites
No, I don't think you understood my reply did you?
I think it best if we discontinue this tangent
The new rules governing strike ballots - increasing to 50% the voting threshold for union ballots turnouts (while retaining the requirement for there to be a simple majority of votes in favour of industrial action); introducing an additional requirement that 40% of all those entitled to vote in the ballot must vote in favour of industrial action in certain public services such as health, education, fire and transport;

Using the same rules as those for teachers etc then neither Brexit or the any of the Parties at a General election since the war (apart from Labour in 1951 - and they lost) would be legitimate. Thatcher wouldn't have even been an MP, nor Churchill in the last election before WWII.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests