New Referendum

This is a general message forum for all football and other general posts. Images, banter and topic wandering allowed. ALL TICKET RELATED POSTS IN DEDICATED THREAD IN HERE ONLY. All ticket related posts elsewhere will be deleted.

Moderators: Virginia_R, nige101uk, willesdenr, qprdotorgadmin, ZENITH R

morrisd52
Level 1 dot.orger
Level 1 dot.orger
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:29 am

New Referendum

Post by morrisd52 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:46 am

So this barrister Mr Jolyon Maugham is launching an attempt to get a 2nd referendum because he says the British public now regret their decision to vote
out, Im asingk how the hell does he know what the public think, has he conducted a poll if so he hasn't ask me . I love these guys who talk about the views of the British Public when all they are pushing is their own point of view .

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7031
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:52 am

It wont happen as the public has already voted and I really dont see a different outcome.

More likely is a vote on the deal offered. Although this will be complete bs and the best deal will only be offered at 11.59pm.

I hope May goes for hard brexit whilst lining up trade deals from other countries. Another vote wont count for anything when zee Germans, froggies and cloggies get voting next year. It will all implode naturally over the next 12 months.

William
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:48 am

Re: New Referendum

Post by William » Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:05 am

If there was another vote, double would vote out, this silly woman is just a tired old sad loser, who needs to accept she is that and move on, we are out and i am proud..............

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 19688
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: New Referendum

Post by Esox Lucius » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:08 pm

William wrote:If there was another vote, double would vote out, this silly woman is just a tired old sad loser, who needs to accept she is that and move on, we are out and i am proud..............
Good on you, I'm sure no-one here will judge you for your lifestyle choices.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

William
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:48 am

Re: New Referendum

Post by William » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:59 pm

I should hope not, but what has that to do with the beautiful future that awaits us once we leave the EU?..............

User avatar
UxbridgeR
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 9239
Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 12:45 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by UxbridgeR » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:26 pm

morrisd52 wrote:So this barrister Mr Jolyon Maugham is launching an attempt to get a 2nd referendum because he says the British public now regret their decision to vote
out, Im asingk how the hell does he know what the public think, has he conducted a poll if so he hasn't ask me . I love these guys who talk about the views of the British Public when all they are pushing is their own point of view .
I think you may have misunderstood how polls work.

Except perhaps in Poland, where their work ethic is different, and they probably do ask everyone. Unlike those workshy British pollsters.
Are headphones getting bigger, or are idiots getting smaller ?

User avatar
Montag
Level 4 dot.orger
Level 4 dot.orger
Posts: 4092
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:26 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by Montag » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:39 am

The liberal elite don't like democracy. That' why we have a representative "democracy". Government by referenda would be more in keeping with the true meaning of the word.
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

William
Level 3 dot.orger
Level 3 dot.orger
Posts: 1831
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2010 10:48 am

Re: New Referendum

Post by William » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:43 am

We voted out, it was a democratic vote, all those who voted leave were well aware of what they were voting for, when for example the Tories win an election, do the Labour party have the legal right to challenge on the basis the people did not understand what they voted for.............

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7031
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:44 am

Montag wrote:The liberal elite don't like democracy. That' why we have a representative "democracy". Government by referenda would be more in keeping with the true meaning of the word.
With the electorate only being deemed suitably educated to make decisions when the right result is obtained?

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7031
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:47 am

William wrote:We voted out, it was a democratic vote, all those who voted leave were well aware of what they were voting for, when for example the Tories win an election, do the Labour party have the legal right to challenge on the basis the people did not understand what they voted for.............
I have not met one fellow brexitier who didn't understand the failings of the EU machine. Even the uneducated ones were able to explain the downward pressures on salaries caused by an influx of cheap unskilled and semi skilled blue collar eastern European labour.

User avatar
Esox Lucius
dot.org legend
dot.org legend
Posts: 19688
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:17 pm
Location: Banbury, Oxon.

Re: New Referendum

Post by Esox Lucius » Tue Dec 13, 2016 11:31 am

Did we ever get our £350m a week back? The NHS could sure use it right now.
It's not the despair that will kill you, it's the hope.

User avatar
DroopStreetOldBoys
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DroopStreetOldBoys » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:21 pm

SheepRanger wrote:
Montag wrote:The liberal elite don't like democracy. That' why we have a representative "democracy". Government by referenda would be more in keeping with the true meaning of the word.
With the electorate only being deemed suitably educated to make decisions when the right result is obtained?
It really wouldn't. That would lead to majority rule, which isn't the same as democracy. There has to be a way to protect the minority from tyranny by the majority, or when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). Even countries that use referenda more frequently tend to set a percentage to be achieved. Participation in whatever system is probably as big of an issue, some of the referenda in Switzerland have had less than 30% turnout others over 49%. In the UK the general election elected a government with a 66% turnout and brexit had a turnout of 84.6%, brexit being the highest ever recorded turnout in th UK, but that's unlikely to ever be matched. How many people would turn out to vote on the Bat Habitats Regulation Bill, for example?

User avatar
DroopStreetOldBoys
Level 2 dot.orger
Level 2 dot.orger
Posts: 829
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Re: New Referendum

Post by DroopStreetOldBoys » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:44 pm

SheepRanger wrote:
William wrote:We voted out, it was a democratic vote, all those who voted leave were well aware of what they were voting for, when for example the Tories win an election, do the Labour party have the legal right to challenge on the basis the people did not understand what they voted for.............
I have not met one fellow brexitier who didn't understand the failings of the EU machine. Even the uneducated ones were able to explain the downward pressures on salaries caused by an influx of cheap unskilled and semi skilled blue collar eastern European labour.
I can't say I met many people, on either side, who hadn't given it a lot of thought, and rightly so, it was a big decision. The idea that everybody voting out did so for the same reason, simply isn't true.

As for William's point, no you can't challenge an election on that basis, in fact according to this http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/_ ... the-UK.pdf the system for bringing a petition against an election seems designed to prevent it ever happening. UKIP are being looked at by the electoral commission to see if they've breached UK election law (they have form for using funds illegally) but even if found guilty (unlikely given the process) I can't see anything other than a fine being handed out.

User avatar
SheepRanger
dotorgsponsor
dotorgsponsor
Posts: 7031
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:09 pm
Location: Swine Down

Re: New Referendum

Post by SheepRanger » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:51 pm

DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
SheepRanger wrote:
William wrote:We voted out, it was a democratic vote, all those who voted leave were well aware of what they were voting for, when for example the Tories win an election, do the Labour party have the legal right to challenge on the basis the people did not understand what they voted for.............
I have not met one fellow brexitier who didn't understand the failings of the EU machine. Even the uneducated ones were able to explain the downward pressures on salaries caused by an influx of cheap unskilled and semi skilled blue collar eastern European labour.
I can't say I met many people, on either side, who hadn't given it a lot of thought, and rightly so, it was a big decision. The idea that everybody voting out did so for the same reason, simply isn't true.

As for William's point, no you can't challenge an election on that basis, in fact according to this http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/_ ... the-UK.pdf the system for bringing a petition against an election seems designed to prevent it ever happening. UKIP are being looked at by the electoral commission to see if they've breached UK election law (they have form for using funds illegally) but even if found guilty (unlikely given the process) I can't see anything other than a fine being handed out.
I'm not suggesting that everyone who voted out did so for the same reason - just that from my close circle of friends they voted based on one issue. Obviously that's not statistically representative.

QPR_John
Level 5 dot.orger
Level 5 dot.orger
Posts: 5880
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:35 pm
Location: Reading

Re: New Referendum

Post by QPR_John » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:57 pm

DroopStreetOldBoys wrote:
SheepRanger wrote:
Montag wrote:The liberal elite don't like democracy. That' why we have a representative "democracy". Government by referenda would be more in keeping with the true meaning of the word.
With the electorate only being deemed suitably educated to make decisions when the right result is obtained?
It really wouldn't. That would lead to majority rule, which isn't the same as democracy. There has to be a way to protect the minority from tyranny by the majority, or when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). Even countries that use referenda more frequently tend to set a percentage to be achieved. Participation in whatever system is probably as big of an issue, some of the referenda in Switzerland have had less than 30% turnout others over 49%. In the UK the general election elected a government with a 66% turnout and brexit had a turnout of 84.6%, brexit being the highest ever recorded turnout in th UK, but that's unlikely to ever be matched. How many people would turn out to vote on the Bat Habitats Regulation Bill, for example?
"when there is something as close as brexit, protecting the majority from the minority (most of the population didn't vote for brexit). "

I see the old idea of people counting those that did not vote as supporters of their side is alive and well

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests