Theresa's big day

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Rbee
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Rbee » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:48 pm

Well I was referring to the European numpties but most involved on both sides haven’t been great.

I think you can blame Nige for some of it, he wound up people like Juncker and Verhofstadt so often in the European Parliament that the personal aspect has been too prevalent on their side.

Really the whole thing needed a larger independent input.

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Esox Lucius » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:32 am

Rbee wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:48 pm
Well I was referring to the European numpties but most involved on both sides haven’t been great.

I think you can blame Nige for some of it, he wound up people like Juncker and Verhofstadt so often in the European Parliament that the personal aspect has been too prevalent on their side.

Really the whole thing needed a larger independent input.
or honesty in the campaign.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Hunter S Thompson » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:31 am

Rbee wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:48 pm
Well I was referring to the European numpties but most involved on both sides haven’t been great.

I think you can blame Nige for some of it, he wound up people like Juncker and Verhofstadt so often in the European Parliament that the personal aspect has been too prevalent on their side.

Really the whole thing needed a larger independent input.
You are member of the EU or a club, like QPR. You decide to leave then off you go. You can’t stop paying your fees and still demand the benefits.
I’m leaving but I still want my seat and my priority tickets for cup matches but I’m not going to contribute.
On you go mate and waddle your ass down the road. WE are leaving the EU. They don’t owe us anything.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Paul Fitz » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:37 am

Watched this closely from day one. Brexit never won the argument, Remain lost it.
I’d love to know what little cabal sat in a dimmed office and planned to scare the sh”t out of Johnny Public (because they is thick) with their warnings of doom and destruction. I voted out but never once believed the ramblings of the bus (and it’s contents). However I became increasingly annoyed at “Project Fear” beginning with Obama (since proven to be a load of crap) and finally ending when they wheeled Major (Oh Please!) and Blair (Oh God!) over to Northern Ireland (I’m originally from there) and warned that a vote for out would result in a return to The Troubles, such contentious lies I have never heard in my life...........that particular episode did it for me.
I agree that many leave supporters would probably change their mind but it’s rarely mentioned how many remain supporters would now do the same.

There is general concencous that the vote would still be the same, causing an absolute unbridgeable chasm in The Uk. The politicians pushing for this are doing so because they have never accepted the decision.
You cannot blame Cameron. It was on the manifesto upon which the conservatives won the election so the referendum already had the will of the people before it happened.
Remember the EU have a history of overturning such votes, they did so with The Lisbon Treaty in Ireland.

As for “The Backstop”..........”Oh Please Again” I’ve been travelling to the Uk Mainland since 1986. There was a hard border in place then made worse by The Troubles (extra security etc). Not once did anyone find it a hassle. Car and Lorry drivers waited whilst customs officers checked your passports and contents, IT WAS NOT a big deal so why are they now making it one, especially with the advances in technology etc.

Last throw of the desperate EU dice IMHO.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by QPR_John » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 am

Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:37 am
Watched this closely from day one. Brexit never won the argument, Remain lost it.
I’d love to know what little cabal sat in a dimmed office and planned to scare the sh”t out of Johnny Public (because they is thick) with their warnings of doom and destruction. I voted out but never once believed the ramblings of the bus (and it’s contents). However I became increasingly annoyed at “Project Fear” beginning with Obama (since proven to be a load of crap) and finally ending when they wheeled Major (Oh Please!) and Blair (Oh God!) over to Northern Ireland (I’m originally from there) and warned that a vote for out would result in a return to The Troubles, such contentious lies I have never heard in my life...........that particular episode did it for me.
I agree that many leave supporters would probably change their mind but it’s rarely mentioned how many remain supporters would now do the same.

There is general concencous that the vote would still be the same, causing an absolute unbridgeable chasm in The Uk. The politicians pushing for this are doing so because they have never accepted the decision.
You cannot blame Cameron. It was on the manifesto upon which the conservatives won the election so the referendum already had the will of the people before it happened.
Remember the EU have a history of overturning such votes, they did so with The Lisbon Treaty in Ireland.

As for “The Backstop”..........”Oh Please Again” I’ve been travelling to the Uk Mainland since 1986. There was a hard border in place then made worse by The Troubles (extra security etc). Not once did anyone find it a hassle. Car and Lorry drivers waited whilst customs officers checked your passports and contents, IT WAS NOT a big deal so why are they now making it one, especially with the advances in technology etc.

Last throw of the desperate EU dice IMHO.
Agree with all of that except the passport thing. Travelled to Ireland quite a lot before and after they joined the EU. Never once had to show a passport, in fact i used to go to Ireland before I had a passport. I take a passport now purely as an identity documant (could use my driving license) and I dont think it will change after we leave


https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... rexit-deal

That is of course unless the EU force Ireland to unilaterally come out of the CTA or the Irish government themselves cancel it.
Last edited by QPR_John on Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by UxbridgeR » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 am

The EU didn't overturn any vote in Ireland. The Irish people voted yes second time around, helped no doubt by the extremely parlous state of their economy at the time.

I can't see the relevance of what the Irish border was like in 1986, even if it were true that back then no one found it a hassle. 20 years of peace under the GFA suggest the majority of people in NI don't want to take a chance on a return to those days, as a 56% vote to Remain indicated.

Irrespective of whether or not there's a second referendum, the "absolute unbridgeable chasm in the UK" is already here, and will be for a generation or more. For me, the whole thing is the biggest act of national self-harm by any developed country in living memory. The last two and a half years have been a slow motion car crash, and on it goes.

"Project Fear" my arse.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by QPR_John » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:22 am

UxbridgeR wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 am
The EU didn't overturn any vote in Ireland. The Irish people voted yes second time around, helped no doubt by the extremely parlous state of their economy at the time.

I can't see the relevance of what the Irish border was like in 1986, even if it were true that back then no one found it a hassle. 20 years of peace under the GFA suggest the majority of people in NI don't want to take a chance on a return to those days, as a 56% vote to Remain indicated.

Irrespective of whether or not there's a second referendum, the "absolute unbridgeable chasm" is already here, and will be for a generation or more.
For me, the whole thing is the biggest act of national self-harm by any developed country in living memory. The last two and a half years have been a slow motion car crash, and on it goes.

"Project Fear" my arse.
"The EU didn't overturn any vote in Ireland. The Irish people voted yes second time around, helped no doubt by the extremely parlous state of their economy at the time."

But the economy was in the same state when they voted no in the first referendum and who insisted on a second referendum. Whoops of course silly me they did not know what they were voting for first time so they were given a second chance to come to the right answer.

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by UxbridgeR » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:27 am

QPR_John wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:22 am

"The EU didn't overturn any vote in Ireland. The Irish people voted yes second time around, helped no doubt by the extremely parlous state of their economy at the time."

But the economy was in the same state when they voted no in the first referendum and who insisted on a second referendum. Whoops of course silly me they did not know what they were voting for first time so they were given a second chance to come to the right answer.
The crash had barely started at the time of the 1st referendum, and the EU made guarantees about the protection of Irish sovereignty before the 2nd.

Things change.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Paul Fitz » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:42 pm

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... bon-treaty

From a paper known well known for its thoughts on Brexit.

Ux, the Irish/British people did not vote for remain because they feared a return of the troubles. They are mostly, a rural people who have benefited from subsidies and grants from the EU (it was a pretty deprived area). Most of my family and friends see the EU as a good thing. Most also knew that the talk of a return to the old days was absolute nonsense. Generations have passed, schools intergration, the acceptance of each other has all improved. Young people do not have the same prejudices as their parents etc. They would never let the troubles return. The fact that politicians used this as a tool was disgraceful and unforgivable, especially given the previous 30 years for us who lived it.
The relevance of the Irish border in the 80s is so because everyone now seems to be making a big deal of something we already had and coped with. It is very obvious the Remainers and The EU are trying to politicise it yet again.
I’m an Irish Catholic (with an Irish Passport) and I actually feel sorry for the Northern Protestants, they must actually feel they’ll being sold down the river with all of this. These are the most loyal people to the crown, how would anyone else in their situation feel?

Being in the EU will always suit the Irish/Welsh/Scottish Nationalists. It’s their only hope of achieving their goals.
M
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by UxbridgeR » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:15 pm

Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:42 pm
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... bon-treaty

From a paper known well known for its thoughts on Brexit.

Ux, the Irish/British people did not vote for remain because they feared a return of the troubles. They are mostly, a rural people who have benefited from subsidies and grants from the EU (it was a pretty deprived area). Most of my family and friends see the EU as a good thing. Most also knew that the talk of a return to the old days was absolute nonsense. Generations have passed, schools intergration, the acceptance of each other has all improved. Young people do not have the same prejudices as their parents etc. They would never let the troubles return. The fact that politicians used this as a tool was disgraceful and unforgivable, especially given the previous 30 years for us who lived it.
The relevance of the Irish border in the 80s is so because everyone now seems to be making a big deal of something we already had and coped with. It is very obvious the Remainers and The EU are trying to politicise it yet again.
I’m an Irish Catholic (with an Irish Passport) and I actually feel sorry for the Northern Protestants, they must actually feel they’ll being sold down the river with all of this. These are the most loyal people to the crown, how would anyone else in their situation feel?

Being in the EU will always suit the Irish/Welsh/Scottish Nationalists. It’s their only hope of achieving their goals.
M
Ah, Brendan O'Neill, the professional contrarian. My favourite recent BO moment was hearing him on Any Questions,telling the assembled audience that in the run-up to the Brexit vote, people at bus stops were routinely discussing the single market and the customs union. His ludicrously romanticized caricature of the average working man is as ridiculous as the opposing view that we're all blithering idiots who couldn't possibly know which end is up, on any subject.

That said, I don't disagree with the idea that second referendums are a questionable concept, although if people are steadfast in their sincerely held beliefs, it shouldn't really be a problem. Nobody will be looking over their shoulder at the polling booth after all.

I'm sure you're right that most people didn't vote Remain because they feared a return to the Troubles. I may have missed it. but I don't recall much talk about that before the vote. But it's quite obviously become a genuine issue since then. The fact that it wasn't an issue in 1986 is neither here nor there. The world's moved on in countless ways. I didn't have a mobile phone or access to the Internet back then, but I'd be struggling to cope without them if you took them away tomorrow. People have had 20 years of easy cross-border access and have come to take it for granted. Any impediment to that is going to cause problems.

The UK leaving the EU will suit Scottish Nationalists far better than staying in it. Scotland voted to Remain by almost 2-1, and I'm sure they'll push for a 2nd vote on independence sooner rather than later.

As for those who want a united Ireland, ultimately demographics will be the deciding factor there, as determined in the GFA.
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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by QPR_John » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:44 pm

UxbridgeR wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:15 pm
Paul Fitz wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:42 pm
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theg ... bon-treaty

From a paper known well known for its thoughts on Brexit.

Ux, the Irish/British people did not vote for remain because they feared a return of the troubles. They are mostly, a rural people who have benefited from subsidies and grants from the EU (it was a pretty deprived area). Most of my family and friends see the EU as a good thing. Most also knew that the talk of a return to the old days was absolute nonsense. Generations have passed, schools intergration, the acceptance of each other has all improved. Young people do not have the same prejudices as their parents etc. They would never let the troubles return. The fact that politicians used this as a tool was disgraceful and unforgivable, especially given the previous 30 years for us who lived it.
The relevance of the Irish border in the 80s is so because everyone now seems to be making a big deal of something we already had and coped with. It is very obvious the Remainers and The EU are trying to politicise it yet again.
I’m an Irish Catholic (with an Irish Passport) and I actually feel sorry for the Northern Protestants, they must actually feel they’ll being sold down the river with all of this. These are the most loyal people to the crown, how would anyone else in their situation feel?

Being in the EU will always suit the Irish/Welsh/Scottish Nationalists. It’s their only hope of achieving their goals.
M
Ah, Brendan O'Neill, the professional contrarian. My favourite recent BO moment was hearing him on Any Questions,telling the assembled audience that in the run-up to the Brexit vote, people at bus stops were routinely discussing the single market and the customs union. His ludicrously romanticized caricature of the average working man is as ridiculous as the opposing view that we're all blithering idiots who couldn't possibly know which end is up, on any subject.

That said, I don't disagree with the idea that second referendums are a questionable concept, although if people are steadfast in their sincerely held beliefs, it shouldn't really be a problem. Nobody will be looking over their shoulder at the polling booth after all.

I'm sure you're right that most people didn't vote Remain because they feared a return to the Troubles. I may have missed it. but I don't recall much talk about that before the vote. But it's quite obviously become a genuine issue since then. The fact that it wasn't an issue in 1986 is neither here nor there. The world's moved on in countless ways. I didn't have a mobile phone or access to the Internet back then, but I'd be struggling to cope without them if you took them away tomorrow. People have had 20 years of easy cross-border access and have come to take it for granted. Any impediment to that is going to cause problems.

The UK leaving the EU will suit Scottish Nationalists far better than staying in it. Scotland voted to Remain by almost 2-1, and I'm sure they'll push for a 2nd vote on independence sooner rather than later.

As for those who want a united Ireland, ultimately demographics will be the deciding factor there, as determined in the GFA.
"People have had 20 years of easy cross-border access and have come to take it for granted. "

Of course that will remain for people and labour if not trade with or without a deal.

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Montag » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:50 pm

The EU is the 4th Reich in all but name? Discuss:
"Go, muster men: My council is my shield ; We must be brief, when traitors brave the field."
Richard III, Act IV, W. Shakespeare

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Rbee » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:33 pm

Hunter S Thompson wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:31 am
Rbee wrote:
Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:48 pm
Well I was referring to the European numpties but most involved on both sides haven’t been great.

I think you can blame Nige for some of it, he wound up people like Juncker and Verhofstadt so often in the European Parliament that the personal aspect has been too prevalent on their side.

Really the whole thing needed a larger independent input.
You are member of the EU or a club, like QPR. You decide to leave then off you go. You can’t stop paying your fees and still demand the benefits.
I’m leaving but I still want my seat and my priority tickets for cup matches but I’m not going to contribute.
On you go mate and waddle your ass down the road. WE are leaving the EU. They don’t owe us anything.

Not as simple as that in my opinion Mr T. If they really give us a hard time and the Brit's stop taking their two weeks in the Mediterranean sun then what for Greece, Spain and maybe Italy?

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Rbee » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:38 pm

Copied from Lane Donald to share....

Earlier today I asked the question " Would you vote Remain or Leave now you know more about the EU?" and a friend of mine Eddy Lonergan posted this comment .... I've typed it out word for word as I believe that everybody, needs to know whats really happening in Europe by somebody who has
lived in Holland for almost the past 4 decades,

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS REGARDLESS OF WHAT SIDE OF THE BREXIT FENCE YOU FIND YOURSELF BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT EVERYBODY
SHOULD KNOW WHATS NOT BEING GIVEN NEWS COVERAGE .....


Eddy Lonergan's own words ... not mine

"I wish the Brits would take the time to see whats going on here Roger. ... I'm a scouser living in Holland getting on 40 years now. .... It is just as bad, in some ways worse than in the UK. For example, Health Insurance is compulsory whether working or unemployed. My wife and I pay 250 euros per month and that is basic, no dentals, physios or extras. 2 major hospitals have shut down - there are no beds - the A&E is the same as the UK, families are asked to look after their parents because of shortages in Care.

The immigration problem is a laughing stock, food banks are noT coping, people in work are not making ends meet and are relying on food banks. .... Belgium, Germany and France have the same problems. Angela Merkel is stepping down as Prime Minister (Chancellor) but has forgot to tell everyone she has a secure high position in Brussels. .... Why would you want to be a member of a gang of pocket-filling thieves who do not care about their people? ... As for Junker ... don't get me started ....

The EU countries are crumbling and no f*cker gives a"dangle-doo-dandy", so GET OUT while you can and maybe others will follow suit". .... They are scaring and flexing their muscles and hoping that it will turn around, because the membership fee the UK puts in every year will have to be put up by the remaining countries. .... Holland will have to double their fee we've been told. ... What other countries can afford this?
Spain, Greece, Italy all bankrupt, so you see the EU does not want to lose the UK and will bully any way to try to win it over by threatening the Northern Ireland deal, the fishing deal, giving back Gibraltar and whatever else they can get their grubby hands on, so don't be fooled, it's not a bed of roses, things are bad here and like I said, in some matters its worse.

The riots in France are not just about fuel tax, its about living standards. .... Belgium and Holland have also taken up the baton with the Yellow Jacket Demonstrators because they're tired of it. .... Take the time to find out yourselves, then you will be glad of Brexit, and like I've said, with sense, holland will follow suit" ....

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Re: Theresa's big day

Post by Paul Fitz » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:17 pm

Interesting.
Not really surprised we don’t hear about things like this. Left wing press have done an excellent job.

I am steadfast in my belief that we should leave the EU, think it’ll bring us nothing but opportunities. I am absolutely convinced that they do not want us to leave because it will be the beginning of the end for their corrupt, incompetent members club.

That said, I (also) absolutely respect the views of the remain side, the non hysterical ones make some very valid points and should be listened to.

What’s the answer.........haven’t got a clue but I do know the minute we try to overturn a democratic vote (because it goes against everything you believe) then where does it end. If anything, because of the the way some of these politicians (and ex ones) have behaved, my personal views have become even further entrenched (and I think/Hope I’m not one of the lunatics😂)

Let’s see where we end up. Love to all.
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