Time to bring in a defensive coach?

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Greyhound
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Greyhound » Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:50 pm

I agree Manning has been great at LB, so why on earth move him.

The other factor is that we are finally playing a new style of football at the back, and it is going to take more than a dozen games before we master it. I would much rather stick with this and concede goals than go back to launching it aimlessly up the field. We have to be patient, there are no short cuts. What hasn't helped has been the relatively poor performances of Cameron and Scowen - if we can make some improvement in that part of the pitch, I think our defending will improve.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by UxbridgeR » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:47 am

I'm sure we'd all love a team that plays attractive, attacking football, scores lots of goals and doesn't concede many. As would every football fan in the country. I'm happy to settle for two out of three at the moment. Throwing it all up in the air because we lost a game seems a bit short-sighted.
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Esox Lucius » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:28 am

UxbridgeR wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:47 am
I'm sure we'd all love a team that plays attractive, attacking football, scores lots of goals and doesn't concede many. As would every football fan in the country. I'm happy to settle for two out of three at the moment. Throwing it all up in the air because we lost a game seems a bit short-sighted.
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I haven't enjoyed watching the R's this much in many years. If it means we ship goals and lose a few games then so be it. Our points and table position clearly demonstrates that there are more good results than bad ones so why throw the baby out with the bath water. Clean sheets are vastly over rated.
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Satch » Wed Oct 30, 2019 12:43 pm

Esox Lucius wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:28 am
UxbridgeR wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:47 am
I'm sure we'd all love a team that plays attractive, attacking football, scores lots of goals and doesn't concede many. As would every football fan in the country. I'm happy to settle for two out of three at the moment. Throwing it all up in the air because we lost a game seems a bit short-sighted.
nailonhead
I haven't enjoyed watching the R's this much in many years. If it means we ship goals and lose a few games then so be it. Our points and table position clearly demonstrates that there are more good results than bad ones so why throw the baby out with the bath water. Clean sheets are vastly over rated.
I agree that we're far exceeding my expectations (and i assume most people's) and in a very enjoyable fashion. Likewise, we have to accept that the way we are playing is going to provide opportunities to other teams and i wouldn't really want to change the style much.

That said i do think a fair few of the goal we've conceded haven't been down to being caught on the break but have actually been when we've had numbers back and we've been a but lax at picking up players - this is something that absolutely could be worked on without impacting the system Warburton has put in place. As much as i'm enjoying us, i certainly prefer it when it's not all for nothing.
SM wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:00 pm
We were discussing this last night. Individually, I don’t think it’s a bad back line at all.

Manning has arguably been our player of the season, BFG is the best defender at the club IMO, Barbet & Hall are both good defenders at this level, as are Rangel & Kane.

We’ve been on the end of some quite horrific refereeing decisions, but we don’t do the basics well enough at all. And we’re not learning either. I don’t know how we address it, but something needs to change.
I think the answer is to have someone work specifically with that group of players within the system MW wants to play. We also need to accept the limitations of the CBs. I rate Hall the highest in general. I love BFG but i don't actually think he's that good (which i don't really like saying as he seems such a great fella). Barbet was also often a cover player at Brentford. Manning has been great for us and absolutely shouldn't be moved but he needs a little time too, as does Kane, he needs a run of games. I also don't think the pair in front have been great recently. I'd like Amos to get a run and some patience from the fans.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by deadendjob » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:36 pm

dm wrote:
Tue Oct 29, 2019 9:48 am
I might be wrong but under SMc weren't Eustace and/or Gardiner the defensive coaches?
Eustace was brought in as a a defensive coach. That always seemed strange to me, given he played midfield during his playing career and had only managed non-league Kidderminster. To sign a 'defensive' coach with a non-defensive resume just doesn't make sense.
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Stateside Ranger » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:05 pm

What was the general consensus on Curtis Fleming? I always got the sense he was a sensible defensive coach for us under Olly, but also a few mixed reviews. (Not sure we would want or get him specifically back but are we after his sort or something else?)

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by westlondonlalala » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:11 pm

Get Richard Dunne or Ryan Nelson in, they know a thing or two about defending.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by kernowhoop » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:44 pm

westlondonlalala wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:11 pm
Get Richard Dunne or Ryan Nelson in, they know a thing or two about defending.
They were 'strong' defenders, hard to get past, but not particularly quick over the ground. Similar to Clint Hill in some ways - eventually, he became too slow for some of the attackers. But, as LaLa suggests, all of these players were successful defenders. So, what was it and would it work today? They could be out-paced, but, they were unlikely to be bullied. But, would they have been comfortable with 'playing out from the back'?
It's simple. Score more goals than they do.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by westlondonlalala » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:58 pm

kernowhoop wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:44 pm
westlondonlalala wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:11 pm
Get Richard Dunne or Ryan Nelson in, they know a thing or two about defending.
They were 'strong' defenders, hard to get past, but not particularly quick over the ground. Similar to Clint Hill in some ways - eventually, he became too slow for some of the attackers. But, as LaLa suggests, all of these players were successful defenders. So, what was it and would it work today? They could be out-paced, but, they were unlikely to be bullied. But, would they have been comfortable with 'playing out from the back'?
I was thinking along the lines of positional sense & savvy as the likes of Dunne, Nelson Hill etc never had the pace but were street wise and often in the right place.

Hall Leistner Barbet haven’t got natural pace but could defo learn a thing or two from the above regarding positional sense & how not to leave yourself exposed.

One thing I think worth remembering & going slightly off topic but although we have shipped goals all season Monday night was against a fluid free scoring inform team, not many will move the ball that well & create what they did.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Greyhound » Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:48 pm

One of the best defensive coaches was/is Gerry Francis, who also didn't play in defence himself. There's a difference between excelling in a position and being good at coaching it.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Esox Lucius » Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:01 pm

Greyhound wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:48 pm
One of the best defensive coaches was/is Gerry Francis, who also didn't play in defence himself. There's a difference between excelling in a position and being good at coaching it.
This ^^^.
Arsene Wenger only played at a very minor level yet was a good coach.
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by westlondonlalala » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:04 pm

Greyhound wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:48 pm
One of the best defensive coaches was/is Gerry Francis, who also didn't play in defence himself. There's a difference between excelling in a position and being good at coaching it.
True but I’d sooner have a former defender coach them than Sean Wright Phillips or Kevin Gallen.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Satch » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:24 am

Esox Lucius wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 8:01 pm
Greyhound wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:48 pm
One of the best defensive coaches was/is Gerry Francis, who also didn't play in defence himself. There's a difference between excelling in a position and being good at coaching it.
This ^^^.
Arsene Wenger only played at a very minor level yet was a good coach.
Likewise Jose Mourinho and that Mark bloke at QPR.

Tbf, good coaches still often work with specialists in certain positions and i think that's a good thing.

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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by deadendjob » Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:37 pm

kernowhoop wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:44 pm
westlondonlalala wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:11 pm
Get Richard Dunne or Ryan Nelson in, they know a thing or two about defending.
They were 'strong' defenders, hard to get past, but not particularly quick over the ground. Similar to Clint Hill in some ways - eventually, he became too slow for some of the attackers. But, as LaLa suggests, all of these players were successful defenders. So, what was it and would it work today? They could be out-paced, but, they were unlikely to be bullied. But, would they have been comfortable with 'playing out from the back'?
Dunne looked like a lummox but he was deceptively fast from memory.
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Re: Time to bring in a defensive coach?

Post by Andy_N19 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:27 am

Just on the theme of defensive cover saw high or low lights of Nico Hammalainen playing for Kilmarnock against Aberdeen over the weekend. The lad had a very poor game, turned inside out by the Aberdeen right winger. He is left footed which would have been useful but on that showing he ain't gonna make the grade.
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